Driving Illegally in Ontario [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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DavidC

08-03-2005, 04:26 PM

Hey there, I'm about to ask a retarded question, so please be gentle.

Does anyone know what the penalty is for driving with a G1 by yourself, or for driving without insurance?

If you have a link to the info, I'll take it, but I don't want to wade through the MTO site to find it, so if someone's already done that, that would be sweet!

--Dave.

Patrick del Poker Grande

08-03-2005, 04:28 PM

MTO... is that some crazy canuck talk for DMV?

HopeydaFish

08-03-2005, 04:32 PM

It's not a slap on the wrist. Believe me, you don't want to do it.

The fine for driving without insurance is either $5000 or $10000, I can't remember which one. Plus you are barred from driving for a certain number of years afterwards. Plus when you finally are alowed to drive again, the insurance companies treat you like they treat former DUI's, and you end up paying the maximum rate.

I was in traffic court a few months ago and watched a kid get the book thrown at him for driving without insurance.

I'm not sure what the penalty for driving with just your G1 is. It's probably not as severe as it is for driving without insurance, but it still might be fairly severe.

HopeydaFish

08-03-2005, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MTO... is that some crazy canuck talk for DMV?

[/ QUOTE ]

Only for us Ontario Canucks...it stands for "Ministry of Transportation of Ontario"

However, lots of people use the term American term "DMV" instead of "MTO".

DavidC

08-03-2005, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MTO... is that some crazy canuck talk for DMV?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ministry of Transportation of Ontario...

so probably, yes.

However, each province has their own licencing / regulatory body, I believe.

--Dave.

DavidC

08-03-2005, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not a slap on the wrist. Believe me, you don't want to do it.

The fine for driving without insurance is either $5000 or $10000, I can't remember which one. Plus you are barred from driving for a certain number of years afterwards. Plus when you finally are alowed to drive again, the insurance companies treat you like they treat former DUI's, and you end up paying the maximum rate.

I was in traffic court a few months ago and watched a kid get the book thrown at him for driving without insurance.

I'm not sure what the penalty for driving with just your G1 is. It's probably not as severe as it is for driving without insurance, but it still might be fairly severe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think some guy said it was a $5700 fine, but I was pretty shocked at that number.

One trick that you can use, if you're a moran, is signing up for insurance for a year, making sure that the cancellation charges aren't huge, then cancelling after a month. You get your doco that states taht you have insurance for a year, and there's no way a patrolman can determine that you haven't paid in the last 6 months, AFAIK anyways.

--Dave.

adamstewart

08-03-2005, 05:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hey there, I'm about to ask a retarded question, so please be gentle.

Does anyone know what the penalty is for driving with a G1 by yourself, or for driving without insurance?

If you have a link to the info, I'll take it, but I don't want to wade through the MTO site to find it, so if someone's already done that, that would be sweet!

--Dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

I belive it's a $5000 fine for driving without insurance.

However, consider these points:

(a) how much would it cost you if you hit and killed someone and got sued?

(This is not to mention what it what costs you morally...)

And by the way, even if you do have insurance, it won't cover any instances arising from illegal actions (i.e. driving by yourself if you only have your G1). So, similar consequences to consider as above....

Be responsible.

Adam

adamstewart

08-03-2005, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One trick that you can use, if you're a moran, is signing up for insurance for a year, making sure that the cancellation charges aren't huge, then cancelling after a month. You get your doco that states taht you have insurance for a year, and there's no way a patrolman can determine that you haven't paid in the last 6 months, AFAIK anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

I beg to differ.

(I should mention that I've worked as an insurance broker for 3 years, and in fact, am still licenced).

Adam

Benal

08-03-2005, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One trick that you can use, if you're a moran, is signing up for insurance for a year, making sure that the cancellation charges aren't huge, then cancelling after a month. You get your doco that states taht you have insurance for a year, and there's no way a patrolman can determine that you haven't paid in the last 6 months, AFAIK anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be shot for suggesting or even thinking of doing this.

adamstewart

08-03-2005, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One trick that you can use, if you're a moran, is signing up for insurance for a year, making sure that the cancellation charges aren't huge, then cancelling after a month. You get your doco that states taht you have insurance for a year, and there's no way a patrolman can determine that you haven't paid in the last 6 months, AFAIK anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be shot for suggesting or even thinking of doing this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, eh!! Gezuz.

Usually those who try to get out of paying for insurance are the types of drivers who need it most.

That said, imagine one of these 'people' hits and kills (or paralyzes...) another person.... then gets sued for $2 million....

... in retrospect, perhaps they'd realize that $1000-$2000 for insurance is a bargain for $2 million coverage in such instances.

(Speaking from an ethical point of view, don't you think the victims and/or their families deserve to be paid off the $2 million ... given what's been taken from them?)

Adam

stinkypete

08-03-2005, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what the penalty for driving with just your G1 is. It's probably not as severe as it is for driving without insurance, but it still might be fairly severe.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm pretty sure driving with just your G1 is driving without insurance

ryanghall

08-04-2005, 11:14 AM

Screw that. What the insurance companies charge people to drive is bloody ridiculous.

I've driven for 11 1/2 years now. I'm almost 28 years old. I've *never* had an accident. I have had 2 minor tickets. I've never had a point off my licence.

I am charged over $150/month for insurance and I've damn sure looked around for a better deal. My insurance rate was recently increased significantly for the simple fact that I MOVED TO A DIFFERENT AREA TEN KILOMETRES AWAY. They said it's a "high traffic area" even though it's a) not and b) I have much less of a drive to work now. Apparently, this didn't figure in even though they said it made a "big difference". Insurance companies have made tens of thousands of dollars off me since I started driving (my insurance used to be higher).

My younger brother pays thousands a year for insurance. THOUSANDS. For the simple fact that he's a young male, and therefore is discriminated against by the insurance industry. They say "young males are more likely to get in accidents". Do statistics allow discrimination. In that case, I could come up with some really really interesting ones with respect to society for you. As well, why aren't senior citizens paying through the roof? They get in more accidents than anyone. Oh yeah, it's because they have nothing to do all day but lobby against anyone who tries to discriminate against them. My brother for a while (I think) seriously thought of driving without insurance.

I say go for it. Just drive responsibly. Try not to get pulled over. If you get a $5K fine, whatever. That's probably what you'd pay for insurance in a year anyway.

Screw insurance companies. I hate them.

stinkypete

08-04-2005, 12:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I am charged over $150/month for insurance and I've damn sure looked around for a better deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

whoopee... i pay more than 3 times that and have had zero tickets.

HopeydaFish

08-04-2005, 12:15 PM

I just looked it up, and the *minimum* fine is $5000, but the court can impose a fine up to $25000 for a first offence. I imagine the $25000 fines are reserved for those who, in addition to driving without insurance, are involved in a an accident, or were pulled over for reckless driving when it was discovered they did not have insurance. The second offence has a minimum $10,000 fine and a maximum $50,000 fine.

While I agree with the poster that said that Insurance Companies make way too much money (which I wouldn't have a problem with if it weren't for the fact that they all collude to keep rates high) and are totally unfair in their rates, etc... I totally do not agree that someone should drive without insurance as some form of "retaliation" against the insurance companies. You won't really be hurting the insurance companies (your $2000 a year is a drop in the bucket to them), but you can seriously screw up your life by driving without insurance.

If you drive without insurance and get into an accident (and nobody *tries* to get in an accident, they sometimes just happen no matter how hard you try to avoid them), you might end up so screwed that you will wish that you died in the accident.

EVEN IF IT IS THE OTHER DRIVER'S FAULT -- if you're injured, you won't be able to get income replacement benefits AND you won't be able to sue the other driver. So if a drunk driver were to t-bone you, and you end up paralyzed and/or you end up requiring a long recuperation, you'll be out of luck.

If you are at fault, things will be even worse for you. The insurance company will sue you to recover any damages that the other party sustained, so you can kiss goodbye whatever assets you have. If you still live with your parents and are a dependant (and it sounds like you might be, because you only have your G1), your parents will be the ones who are sued and will be the ones who will potentially lose everything.

It's not worth driving without insurance. Don't try rationalizing it by telling yourself that the insurance industry is crooked. If you don't have insurance, you can destroy your life.

HopeydaFish

08-04-2005, 12:17 PM

jackdaniels

08-04-2005, 12:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I am charged over $150/month for insurance and I've damn sure looked around for a better deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

whoopee... i pay more than 3 times that and have had zero tickets.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have other insurance coverage talk to your broker about getting an umbrella policy. Not only will you be paying less for car insurance, side benefits include reduced rates on life and home insurance.

I am NOT an insurance broker.

adamstewart

08-04-2005, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As well, why aren't senior citizens paying through the roof? They get in more accidents than anyone. Oh yeah, it's because they have nothing to do all day but lobby against anyone who tries to discriminate against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Learn what you're talking about before you speak.

Seniors generally pay less for insurance because, although some (and I stress "some") may be at an increased risk to be in an accident... they rarely ever drive! Therefore, overall there less chance the insurance company will have to pay for them having an accident.

This is not to mention that most seniors are not at an increased risk of getting in an accident. They are usually cautious/slower drivers to begin with. (After all, if they weren't medically fit to drive, most would have their lisences revoked).

Finally, because of the above, seniors are rewarded with "Senior Bonses" offered by the companies for those who have proven extended periods of being accident-free. This is not to mention that seniors who own homes, etc will often take advantage of the "Multi-Policy Discounts" that most companies offer.

The fact is that YOUNG, MALE DRIVERS actually pay less than they statistically should! They ARE by far the most likely to get in accidents. The rest of the consumer population's rates, I believe, are actually slightly adjusted to subsidize the many accidents young male drivers incur.

You also forget that the majority of the auto insurance premium paid goes toward LIABILITY AND ACCIDENT BENEFITS. When severe accidents occur (and they do), these coverages cost millions of dollars. People (yourself included, I suspect) often mistakenly assume that the $1000 they pay in insurance is used to cover their $2000 vehicle for collision and comprehensive coverages. They forget about the BIG picture and more important insurance coverages that they are getting.

Look at your own auto policy... check out the breakdown of premiums and how much goes to each indivual coverage... you'll see....

Now, I'm not going to say that insurance companies don't profit. Insurance is a business, like any other. If the companies don't show a profit for their investors, the investors will invest elsewhere .... then the insurance industry couldn't survive.

Some of you may think this is a good thing ..... that is, until you try to buy a home ... or a car ... and the bank's won't loan you any money because you don't have insurance! Banks aren't gonna loan thousands of dollars unless it's a sure thing they won't lose money on it ... and you get into an accident, or if your house burns down, without having insurance.... you can't pay them back!

And obviously you'd be thankful for having insurance if you ever got in an accident and hurt or killed someone...

Also, don't go thinking that insurance companies are making as much profits as they please. Their profits are actually regulated by the government. Therefore, they are only allowed as much profit as the government will allow ... they're not carelessly robbing your pockets.

Adam

adamstewart

08-04-2005, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
While I agree with the poster that said that Insurance Companies make way too much money (which I wouldn't have a problem with if it weren't for the fact that they all collude to keep rates high)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just not true.

Dammit, the general public would be a lot less skeptical if they learned to educate themselves.

Adam

HopeydaFish

08-04-2005, 12:38 PM

Oh, and I hit a deer a few months ago that required $3000 in repairs to my car. The insurance company paid for it and my rates didn't go up when my renewal notice arrived last week. I pay about $900 a year in car insurance, so it will take about 3 1/2 years before the insurance company "breaks even" on this claim.

Now just imagine if I *hadn't* had insurance: I hit the deer (and I couldn't have avoided it, it just jumped out of the bushes in front of my car). An OPP officer happened to be driving by and pulled over. He wrote up a report and asked to see my insurance information when he did so. If I hadn't had it, he would have charged me with driving without insurance.

So...rather than having a car fixed for free (well, minus the $300 deductible), I'd have to pay this:

1) $3000 in repairs to my car.
2) $5000 fine for driving without insurance
3) Had my license suspended
4) And then would be considered "High risk" by insurance companies and have to pay the maximum possible rates for the next few years.

And this would be as a result of hitting a deer. Just imagine how much worse it would be if I had hit a human. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

adamstewart

08-04-2005, 12:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and I hit a deer a few months ago that required $3000 in repairs to my car. The insurance company paid for it and my rates didn't go up when my renewal notice arrived last week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hitting a deer is a "comprehensive" claim (like theft, fire, or a broken windshield) - not a collision claim.

As everyone knows, collision claims affect insurance rates.

Comphrensive claims don't affect one's insurnace rates. However, if a perons has two or three comprehensive claims within a 3 year period, the company can force you to have a higher deductible. If you have 4 or more within a 3 year period, they may even deny you further comprehensive coverage. But again, your rates wouldn't be affected.

Adam

HopeydaFish

08-04-2005, 12:54 PM

That's what I thought, but there are always people out there who will immediately say "Your rates are going to go up" every time you mention anything to do with making an insurance claim. I had this same discussion with a friend of mine last night and he was worried about making a claim on a cracked windshield because he thought his rates would go up. I told him that this wasn't the case, but he didn't seem to believe me.

Here's a question, though. If I have made a comprehensive claim in the last 2 years and I want to switch insurance comapanies, will the other insurance companies automatically quote me higher rates because of my claim?

DavidC

08-04-2005, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I belive it's a $5000 fine for driving without insurance.

However, consider these points:

(a) how much would it cost you if you hit and killed someone and got sued?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a net worth of about $9k right now, so $9k, less the fine, of course, so $4k. Less if I declare bancrupcy, and unless they change their suit to being only worth $4k, I'll have to. So I guess whatever the legal fees are for declaring bancrupcy, maybe $1.5k or less. Plus opportunity cost from having my credit shot.

[ QUOTE ]

(This is not to mention what it what costs you morally...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this wouldn't be good. However, I don't really think the insurance thing has much to do with it. I definitely don't want to kill someone. The main thing about insurance (for me) is that I can at least provide for the family of the guy I killed. However, I'm not going to be purchasing any more than basic insurance, and I'm not sure what that protects you against in Ontario. It's entirely possible that even when I buy insurance I will therefore be in the same situation that you just described.

[ QUOTE ]

And by the way, even if you do have insurance, it won't cover any instances arising from illegal actions (i.e. driving by yourself if you only have your G1). So, similar consequences to consider as above....

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. Makes sense.

[ QUOTE ]

Be responsible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay.

DavidC

08-04-2005, 12:58 PM

DavidC

08-04-2005, 12:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what the penalty for driving with just your G1 is. It's probably not as severe as it is for driving without insurance, but it still might be fairly severe.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm pretty sure driving with just your G1 is driving without insurance

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not allowed to drive without insurance, at all. Therefore if you're driving with a G1, you either must purchase insurance, or must be driving with someone who has insurance for other people who drive their car...

DavidC

08-04-2005, 12:59 PM

ryanghall

08-04-2005, 01:03 PM

You surely can't argue that insurance companies make far more money than they have any right to.

And don't say "the government allows... blah blah"

Just because the government allows insurance companies to make x dollars doesn't mean they have to bleed us dry of every last cent they can.

The public is pissed off and have every right to be. The government should just take over insurance.

DavidC

08-04-2005, 01:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
(Speaking from an ethical point of view, don't you think the victims and/or their families deserve to be paid off the $2 million ... given what's been taken from them?)

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends, man.

If you were to take out a child, then no. They deserve compensation for some time off of work, as well as funeral costs.

The premise behind this is that money doesn't replace human life (I'm not suggesting that life is worthless). Therefore an infinite amount of money and the money that I just described are exactly equal.

However, if you kill a guy that brings in 60% of the income to 3 kids and a wife, this is financially devestating to the family, and should be compensated financially. They shouldn't get $2m as a lump-sum, but they should be able to get basically this guy's income for a significant period of time, at the same rate that he would have earned it, plus funeral expenses and legal expenses (for estate planning, etc.) as a lump-sum. I wouldn't say that they should get it for the rest of their working life, either, because that wouldn't account for situations where the female provider remarries and is sharing expenses with a new mate, or situations where the provider would have died young of natural causes, or where the pair would have divorced.

Anyways, in these situations, you should be looking at what's fair and reasonable, as opposed to looking at case histories to find precidents and things like that.

--Dave.

DavidC

08-04-2005, 01:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Some of you may think [the elimination of the insurance industry would be] a good thing ..... that is, until you try to buy a home ... or a car ... and the bank's won't loan you any money because you don't have insurance!

[/ QUOTE ]

Adam, you're just being silly. Of course they would lend you the money, it would just be at a higher interest rate due to increased risk.

That's not to suggest that the elimination of the insurance industry would be a good thing, but I just wanted to let you know we would still have homes and cars.

After all, I'm a nit.

DavidC

08-04-2005, 01:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and I hit a deer a few months ago that required $3000 in repairs to my car. The insurance company paid for it and my rates didn't go up when my renewal notice arrived last week. I pay about $900 a year in car insurance, so it will take about 3 1/2 years before the insurance company "breaks even" on this claim.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um... not really.

Edit: That's kinda like saying you "made $500" on a rivered backdoor double-gutshot. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sorry for the poker content, but this is an example we can all understand.

Adam, thanks for clearing up "the collision and comprehensive" divide, as well as the different mehtods of premiums calculations. Pretty cool.

For me, personally, I don't know if I could afford to get a car and insurance at the same time right now. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

It looks like I'll probably juyst have to wait.

Zurvan

08-04-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One trick that you can use, if you're a moran, is signing up for insurance for a year, making sure that the cancellation charges aren't huge, then cancelling after a month. You get your doco that states taht you have insurance for a year, and there's no way a patrolman can determine that you haven't paid in the last 6 months, AFAIK anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

I beg to differ.

(I should mention that I've worked as an insurance broker for 3 years, and in fact, am still licenced).

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Neat. How do they find out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Police cars have computers. They look it up. If you don't have active insurance, you are SOL. I got stopped for speeding a few months ago. We did not have the current insurance card in the car. My fiance had it in her purse at home. We got a $75 ticket for "failing to produce insurance", but they knew we were covered. Otherwise - the $5000, and a big problem.