$11 - lay down TPTK?

[Winwood]

Hi - this is the 2nd or 3rd hand of a Party $10+1. No reads, and I'm not sure I made any good decisions here at all...

NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee
Level:1 Blinds(10/15)

Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: DiggerPhelps ( $800 )
Seat 2: im_a_giness ( $790 )
Seat 3: EBANKO ( $715 )
Seat 4: ocslifter ( $685 )
Seat 5: imallinalot ( $785 )
Seat 6: sims9913 ( $810 )
Seat 7: cooker9364 ( $995 )
Seat 8: bray444 ( $920 )
Seat 9: wolfcalls ( $745 )
Seat 10: matsky ( $755 )

Dealt to bray444 A /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif
cooker9364 calls [15].
bray444 calls [15].
wolfcalls folds.
matsky raises [55].
DiggerPhelps folds.
im_a_giness calls [55].
EBANKO calls [55].
ocslifter folds.
imallinalot folds.
sims9913 folds.
cooker9364 calls [40].
bray444 calls [40].

First question is, does anyone fold here? I do fold AJo here, but can't do it with AQo. Should I start trying?

The small raise of 55 after 2 limpers made me think it was a big hand. I make this exact raise with AA/KK/QQ. What do you make of this? I have no idea what the 2 cold callers could have, but likely reasonable hands.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
cooker9364 checks.
bray444 checks.
matsky bets [75].
im_a_giness calls [75].
EBANKO calls [75].
cooker9364 is all-In [940]
bray444 folds.
matsky folds.
im_a_giness folds.
EBANKO is all-In [585]

Nice flop, but given the PF action I thought it prudent to check to see what happens - is this just playing scared?

When PF raiser then bets 75 into a pot of 310 I'm still thinking big hand.

The guy who pushes could have a lot of hands - this is a 11 remember - maybe nut flush draw, maybe straight, maybe overpair, maybe AQ like me, maybe trips. Plus the donk-factor shouldn't be ignored and he may have some hands I like, but not many I can think of. And so with the push, plus potential monsters behind me, I fold - Am I giving people too much credit?

Oh yeah and guess I was wrong about PF-raiser's monster /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The results don't really matter. I just felt I was playing weak the whole way, culminating in folding tptk, which doesn't happen that often I guess...so what do you think about my thought process? How should I have played it?

Thanks

[Raiser]

Folding that flop seems good to me.

[suited_ace]

I fold to the PF raise that early in the tournament. And yeah, it's an auto-muck after a push and a call on the flop.

[lastchance]

I like checking the flop against so many opponents. I also like folding preflop against the raise, though I certainly limp in EP.

[Winwood]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold to the PF raise that early in the tournament. And yeah, it's an auto-muck after a push and a call on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without the cold callers I would like to think I would have folded preflop too. But I was closing the action for 40 more chips, getting good pot odds, or so I thought. At nearly 7-1, do you still fold?

By the way, it wasn't a push and a call to me on the flop, just a push. But I guess its still auto-muck.

[durron597]

Are you kidding me? Wow @ the weaktightness.

This is an $11. This is a fold in $215, this is an easy easy call in $11s.

[11t]

This is a good fold, there are so many draws and such that even if your TPTK is good now there is a good chance it won't be good on the river.

I never even limp with AJ in this position.

[Winwood]

[ QUOTE ]
I like checking the flop against so many opponents. I also like folding preflop against the raise, though I certainly limp in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I just replied to the other poster, I thought the pot odds preflop justified the call....but you obviously don't...I'd be interested to hear why? If I'm wrong here then I've just found a major leak in my game /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you kidding me? Wow @ the weaktightness.

This is an $11. This is a fold in $215, this is an easy easy call in $11s

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the action and the draws, this is an easy fold on any buy-in. I also wouldn't have called the raise after initially limping.

[liucipher]

[ QUOTE ]
This is an $11.

[/ QUOTE ]

[45suited]

Even on 11s, guys can actually pick up hands or hit flops.

You have TPTK on a flop that is extremely draw heavy that alot of players liked. There's also players left to act even if you don't lay down. So many possible hands are either way, way ahead or have great draws against our hand. Easy fold even on an 11.

[dinero2433]

Reading some of these replies, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills... But here's what I would have done:

PF - raise to 3x the big blind - AQo is a pretty good hand, and I want to fire out a raise to define it. I'm probably folding to a big reraise, depending on what you know about the player.

But given you acted as you did PF, I would still bet out at this flop. You have top pair top kicker - why would you want to give flush and straight draws a free card? Why wouldn't you try and take command of this pot until you are given reason to reconsider? I think a 1/2 to 2/3 pot sized bet is in order. If the PF raiser fires back at you after you bet out, it might be a good bet that he's not afraid of your queen, at which point you had better fold.

As you mentioned, 10+1 players will call with hands a lot worse than your AQ. And the PF raiser could have anything halfway decent - AJs, JJ-77, and plenty of other hands that you potentially beat. In my opinion, this hand needs to be played much more aggressively from start to finish.

[liucipher]

I will agree I'd be torn on the flop given the action. I most likely would have been dumb and called given the amount in the pot and my irritation at folding the best hand in a big pot. I will cede that's probably -EV.

But preflop? Come on, fold to a t40 reraise to a bunch of limpers?

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
But preflop? Come on, fold to a t40 reraise to a bunch of limpers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then you wouldn't like my original answer, which I left out because it didn't address the actual question of the OP. I would fold AQo UTG+1 in level 1. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

And somehow, I had an ROI in the 30s on the 11s. Just a matter of personal preference. I like hands that play themselves on level 1, especially if I'm going to play them from EP. AQo isn't one of those hands.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I will agree I'd be torn on the flop given the action. I most likely would have been dumb and called given

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't have been dumb. THIS IS AN 11. I've seen both of the allin players have two NAKED flush draws so many timse I can't count.

Yes, bad players can pick up hands. But come on guys, folding in an 11 is overthinking yourself. (and trust me, if anyone has experience with overthinking themselves it's me).

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I will agree I'd be torn on the flop given the action. I most likely would have been dumb and called given

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't have been dumb. THIS IS AN 11. I've seen both of the allin players have two NAKED flush draws so many timse I can't count.

Yes, bad players can pick up hands. But come on guys, folding in an 11 is overthinking yourself. (and trust me, if anyone has experience with overthinking themselves it's me).

[/ QUOTE ]

I really disagree with this. I certainly think it's possible that we are ahead, but I don't think it's likely given the action.

Do you really think we are ahead enough of the time to make this a good call?

[Winwood]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is an $11.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think sometimes people don't give enough credit to 11 players. I don't know about anyone else (and I'm not much of a judge) - but normally there's at least 1 or 2 other players at the table who seem to know what they're doing.

Sometimes you've got to act like everyone's not a complete idiot. I'm not saying this is one of those times...but sometimes

[liucipher]

I break even at the $11s despite being able to beat the $6s with the higher vig. This is probably due to the fact that 95% of the people at $6s are donks vs. only 85% at the $11s.

I agree this hand is ugly given the action. But one of the glories of an $11 is that variance will not force you to release your car. You may be ahead, you may be behind. My guess at an $11 is that the times you're ahead outnumber the times you're behind.

For 45suited, and anybody with carpal/tunnel under their avatar, they can most likely play well enough that such a small +EV move is unnecessary.

For me, I have a bankroll but low skill, so I take whatever +EV situations I can get.


Likewise 45suited, I think folding this preflop is incredibly weak/tight. But as I observed, if your play in level 4+ is good (vs. mine which is poor), it's probably smart.

[Winwood]

[ QUOTE ]
PF - raise to 3x the big blind - AQo is a pretty good hand, and I want to fire out a raise to define it. I'm probably folding to a big reraise, depending on what you know about the player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to do this, then I started limping, and now I think I'm actually gonna start folding AQo. It is a good hand, but I'm starting to think, for me, its not good enough in such early position level 1. Like another poster said, AQo doesn't exactly play itself.

[ QUOTE ]

But given you acted as you did PF, I would still bet out at this flop. You have top pair top kicker - why would you want to give flush and straight draws a free card? Why wouldn't you try and take command of this pot until you are given reason to reconsider? I think a 1/2 to 2/3 pot sized bet is in order. If the PF raiser fires back at you after you bet out, it might be a good bet that he's not afraid of your queen, at which point you had better fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking was, with the PF action, I'd find out soon enough where I was. Plus, any sensible size bet into that pot is gonna be >20% of my stack. I sure don't like laying that down to a raise. Whaddaya think? You're right though, giving a free card would have been a disaster.

[ QUOTE ]
As you mentioned, 10+1 players will call with hands a lot worse than your AQ. And the PF raiser could have anything halfway decent - AJs, JJ-77, and plenty of other hands that you potentially beat. In my opinion, this hand needs to be played much more aggressively from start to finish.

[/ QUOTE ]

It certainly wasn't played aggressively, no argument there.

[Winwood]

[ QUOTE ]
For 45suited, and anybody with carpal/tunnel under their avatar, they can most likely play well enough that such a small +EV move is unnecessary.

For me, I have a bankroll but low skill, so I take whatever +EV situations I can get.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its funny, but I've always thought the exact opposite. Good players see and make the most of every singe small +EV situation. As a beginner I don't worry about seeing or giving up these tiny edges and instead concentrate on the big stuff - like tight play preflop and overall aggressiveness.

I'm just saying though

Winwood
Who is starting to feel out of his depth

[lastchance]

I like limping preflop. It's going to be checked around a lot of the time, but while you have nice pot odds, you don't have implied odds after the raise, and it's very hard to play AQ in a huge pot.

While you could have the all-in player beat, there are a bunch of people left to worry about who seem interested in their hand. While calling is ok, I prefer folding.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree this hand is ugly given the action. But one of the glories of an $11 is that variance will not force you to release your car.

[/ QUOTE ]

Play your best regardless of the buy-in. Never take the approach, "Whatever, it's only $11." All your decisions should be based on what you perceive to be the best play.

[ QUOTE ]
My guess at an $11 is that the times you're ahead outnumber the times you're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you understand how flawed this reasoning is? You have to take into account how likely you are to be outdrawn the times that you are ahead as well. There is a good chance that you are slightly ahead and a good chance that you are significantly behind.

[ QUOTE ]
Likewise 45suited, I think folding this preflop is incredibly weak/tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak / tight play is nothing to be ashamed of during level 1 play! In fact, IMO, it's close to optimal, especially for less than the top players (which includes all of us at the 22s and below). There is no reason to get involved with AQo UTG+1 after UTG limps. I would fold AQo UTG+1 even if UTG folded.

IMO, if you can't get away from TPTK on a board like this, that is precisely why you should fold AQo from UTG or UTG+1 on level 1.

A couple more points: I don't believe that calling here is +EV. Not even close. Plus (and this is important) why put your entire tournament at risk here? You guys keep saying that your opponents are terrible at the 11s. They are. Stay alive so that you can take advantage of their terrible play. They literally make horrendous mistakes IF YOU LET THEM. You are not way ahead here. You have TPTK on this board against multiple opponents who like their hands. Big deal. STAY ALIVE and let your opponents play badly later.

I've made enough posts on this forum to show that I am far from a great player. (Just ask Adanthar about my utter lack of understanding regarding why you don't just want one caller with AK OOP.) But I understand my limitations and basic tournament and bubble strategy. Since I understand my limitations (like most SNGers who won't admit it, my post flop play often leaves something to be desired) I play level one hands that play themselves. Not AQo UTG or UTG+1.

Durron made a post today where he said that he folds AQo UTG. I'm assuming he said this because playing AQo UTG only invites trouble. No criticism from anyone (as there should not be). On this hand, I say fold AQo UTG+1 after there was one limper and get a couple of "weak/tight" replies. Think about it.

To all players struggling on the 22s or below:

Do not be afraid to be weak/tight on level 1.

Learn tournament strategy. Learn correct bubble play. Pay attention to stack sizes.

Don't do anything fancy. Don't try to make great reads. Play ABC poker.

[Winwood]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus (and this is important) why put your entire tournament at risk here? You guys keep saying that your opponents are terrible at the 11s. They are. Stay alive so that you can take advantage of their terrible play. They literally make horrendous mistakes IF YOU LET THEM. You are not way ahead here....STAY ALIVE and let your opponents play badly later.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the key to the whole thing here. I don't mind making small mistakes in return for not risking the entire tournament in a marginal situation - there's simply no point, because before long the situation will be anything but marginal and you can watch as your opponents make massive mistakes instead.

I'll worry about fixing the small mistakes later.