unusual bad beat. Thought it was interesting

[rickr]

Now everyone talks about the quality of play as you progress. I don't believe it. I think the fish (myself included) run the gamot. It's just a bankroll issue. Not quality of play. Now I really felt like there was a good chance I was beat here, so you can flame me all you want for not raising more preflop, or that I should have laid this down. But I bet out knowing I was either way ahead or way behind. What was really interesting was what he had.

Very first hand.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t800)
Hero (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t800)
Button (t800)
SB (t800)
BB (t800)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t70</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t70, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls t55.

Flop: (t220) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t730 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t430 (All-In).

Turn: (t1680) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t1680) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1680

Take a guess. I'll make it alittle easier for you and tell you "he had no spade". lol

Later,
Rick

[olddominion]

89.

This doesnt seem all that interesting.

[raptor517]

i guarantee u will get ZERO sympathy from ANYONE on this forum. period. you bet way too much on the flop. thats YOUR mistake. this is a CHECKABLE flop. feel free to even check fold. your hand is very weak right now. interesting as to what he had? 56 with the 5 or spades and nutted up. WHO CARES. you make money off of bad people. get used to it. when you drop 20+ buyins IN A ROW, then you are allowed to make a bad beat post. holla

[Nick B.]

first of all, you butchered this hand. second of all, there is no such thing as an interesting bad beat.

Why would you want to raise more preflop? (if you say to avoid having you AA lose, you are wrong to do so) There is no reason to go superaggressive on this flop, you don't have that good of a hand. There is nothing wrong with trying to win the pot cheaply or trying to get to showdown cheaply. Including the possibility of checking after a preflop raise, *gasp*.

[rickr]

Raptor. Wasn't looking for sympathy. When I put my money in I really didn't think it would be a true "bad beat". I expected to get beat by the flush or at least be up against a good draw. The guy flipped over TJ no spades. Just thought that was comical. No need to get your panties in a wad.

Later,
Rick

[raptor517]

lol, panties in a wad? you come to the wrong forum for sympathy. im not berating you. im telling you that if you get YOUR panties in a wad over something like THIS, you have a LOT to learn about poker. holla

[Angelic_Ace]

How is this interesting? You both played it recklessly.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
But I bet out knowing I was either way ahead or way behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, as an aside, as i am much more thorough after reading a post 1305809216809 times. there are very FEW hands you are way ahead of here, just so you know. any pair with a flush draw is pretty much even money agianst yer red aces. just so you know for next time. holla

[rickr]

Nick, agree with you on raising more. I didn't think I should. I have just seen people on here say to raise more preflop. If I had bet less on this flop someone would have complained that I didn't bet enough. It was the very first hand. I overbet hoping to take the pot right there with the knowledge I was probably beat. I just figured if I was beat by the flopped flush or straight, I'd fire up another game. But if I wasn't, they were going to pay dearly for the draw. I was perfectly fine with that choice. I had no desire to get to a showdown cheaply on that flop. Way too many draws. I figured unless I folded I was getting my money in with my aces WHILE I HAD A GOOD CHANCE OF BEING AHEAD. What he reraised all-in was what I found interesting. That's what I thought was unusual.

Man

[raptor517]

wow. i dont even know how to respond to this. ok, so i have had a rough evening, so im going to be a bit harsh. i apologize in advance since im such a nice guy and all. WTF WERE YOU THINKING. you contradict yourself like 26 times in yer paragraph. you pretty much explain how you want to lose your money, over and over again.

why would you 'try to take the pot right there with the knowledge you were probably beat?' in the level you play at, any hand that beats aces here, DOES NOT FOLD. period. you are throwing your money away for that. dont take this the wrong way. im not trying to just be mean and flame a noob. im helping to improve your game. and it will. PLAY THIS HAND SLOW. you only get action when beat. its not worth throwing away your money. holla

[rickr]

Agreed, I should have said ahead or way behind. Coinflip with most hands, almost dead meat against the monsters, which would be what, 2 spades of course. I'm ahead of all pockets except those that hit there set, and 88 or 99 with the spade. 89 of course your dead. But how many of those do you expect to play to an early position raise first hand. What I really expected to see was someone that hit there set, or AT with the ace being a spade. I can see someone calling TT, or AT, but 45 of spades or something. Kind of ruled them out because of my position when I raised. An early position raise real early seems to get reraised so often, I assumed middle position players would be even more leary of getting caught in the middle. Would you put a middle position player on a hand that crushed you if you were in my position? What hand?

Later,
Rick

[raptor517]

what is this, a 20+2? lol, i have seen people in the 215s make a call with 74o from an utg raiser who makes it 5x. this should give you some idea of the level of play you should expect to see. in sngs, you dont play poker. you play morons. holla

[rickr]

[ QUOTE ]
PLAY THIS HAND SLOW. you only get action when beat. its not worth throwing away your money. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought was interesting about this hand. Not that I played it right or anything. It was the fact that this guy did give me action when I was miles ahead. That's why I said unusual in my title. Couldn't believe it at a 30+3. I've always slowed way way down with an ugly flop like that. Was just trying something. Thought it was interesting enough to post. Again, wasn't crying, or asking for sympathy. Just thought you guys that are always talking about the quality of play improving as you go up MIGHT be able to learn something from it.

Sorry,
Rick

[rickr]

[ QUOTE ]
what is this, a 20+2? lol, i have seen people in the 215s make a call with 74o from an utg raiser who makes it 5x. this should give you some idea of the level of play you should expect to see. in sngs, you dont play poker. you play morons. holla

[/ QUOTE ]
That was the point of my post. Not a bad beat.

Later,
Rick

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Just thought you guys that are always talking about the quality of play improving as you go up MIGHT be able to learn something from it.

[/ QUOTE ]

the quality of play DOES go up as you go up in levels.. it only makes sense.. there are going to be bad players at ALL levels. just rich donkeys. holla

[rickr]

Yea I suppose so. I was just shocked it was this bad. lol. OK, tell me something Raptor. You said somewhere in this thread that no hand that beats you is going to fold out here. I can see a lot of hands that beat you laying down, or at least flat calling with people left to act, to a bet of that size. What hand raises all in? The vast majority of the time I've seen the push is either a draw, or a set. Rarely will the nut raise all-in, from my experience. What hands would you expect to see here that called my original raise, then raised all in with people left to act that are beating my aces?

Thanks,
Rick

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a CHECKABLE flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I probably bet 150 and drop to a push. Checking seems terribly weak. Enlighten me? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[UMTerp]

[ QUOTE ]
in sngs, you dont play poker. you play morons.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one of my favorite quotes ever.

[Karak567]

Overbetting the flop is bad.

However at a 20 + 2 or 30 + 3 I am probably going to the felt with AA. More times than not, even with a scary flop, you are still way ahead, as is evidenced here.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Now everyone talks about the quality of play as you progress. I don't believe it. I think the fish (myself included) run the gamot. It's just a bankroll issue. Not quality of play. Now I really felt like there was a good chance I was beat here, so you can flame me all you want for not raising more preflop, or that I should have laid this down. But I bet out knowing I was either way ahead or way behind. What was really interesting was what he had.

[/ QUOTE ]

alright, it seems like you have probably been smashed almost enough for having played the hand like an absolute jackass and all, so i'll smash you for something else.

here goes: as you move up levels, the skill of the AVERAGE player you face increases. there are still players who are bad, and still players who are REALLY bad. however, i don't think that anyone who is playing any kind of 800 chip game can talk about how they have moved up enough levels to expect to see a marked increase in quality of play from their average opponent. at all the 800 chip games, there are still many many players who play like total donkeys. sadly you appear to have used the "show my name as Hero" button, so i can't make a joke about having found out the name of a new one.

citanul

[rickr]

I keep being told I played this hand wrong, But you don't say how you would have played it, and Raptor said he would check and fold it. (Insinuated, not said). Neither have said what hands would really be ahead of me here. If I had not bet, you guys would have flamed. If I had half potted you would have said I showed weakness. Had I bet pot, someone would have said I needed to overbet with that many in to assure the bare ace would lay it down. I have seen everyone of these answers given by you guys. Now. How is my thought process so fishy? Given the way the hand played out, what hand would you put villian on? A made straight? He called my raise first hand in a tourney with others to follow with 98o? A set? If so there is a chance he will lay that down, with maybe the exception of TT. JQs, QKs, JKs? Something like that. Yes possible. But probable? These are the only hands that are ahead of me at this point. All others are drawing. Now my bet showed strength. I took all drawing odds away for everyone. I shouldn't be reraised by anyone in middle position with the nuts. The nut should have smooth called, hoping to get later positions to come along. If he had smooth called, or anyone in late position had came along, I would have dropped. But do you really see this guy holding a monster?

Can't believe I'm taking this much crap on this hand.

Later,
Rick

[gumpzilla]

People get so upset by bad beat posts here, yet they always seem to draw a fair number of responses. I guess people just need to show their superior poker Zen every now and then.

Doesn't it occur to people that if you don't like bad beat posts - and this one even does you the courtesy of announcing that it is a bad beat post - the best way to discourage them is not to respond?

[UMTerp]

A nice 2/3 pot bet would do the trick. If someone comes over top of that, you just have to take your medicine and lay down the aces.

You just shoved all your chips in the middle on the very first hand on a scary board that against multiple opponents with a flop you didn't connect with, then said that "we" are chastising you for it. Uh, yeah - that hand probably could've been played a little better.

[viennagreen]

i think that i would probably do the same... a flat call would give me pause, but on the turn, i'd probably continue on betting figuring it was a 4-to-the-flush draw (unless a spade turned up).

that's just me though.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
i think that i would probably do the same... a flat call would give me pause, but on the turn, i'd probably continue on betting figuring it was a 4-to-the-flush draw (unless a spade turned up).

that's just me though.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW I wouldn't bet the turn if called.
There's no need to protect against draws because I'm not even sure my hand is good at that point. Then again, I don't raise as much PF so I'm working with a much smaller pot at that point.

[viennagreen]

two pair, a set, or a baby flush.

[rickr]

Two pair or set are possible. Of course those are possible on any flop. Do you lay down aces everytime your raised fearing them? Flopped flush is really the only hand your way behind here, as the 2 pair and set hand would have to worry about the flopped flush as well.

Rick

[viennagreen]

how much did you raise?

lol

[viennagreen]

look... a person showed a lot of strength... you didn't raise enough to put anyone at this buy-in (in the first hand no less) on a hand.. it's a scary board... it's not like you have a draw... you're screwed.. you have to lay it down..

that's why you raise more in the first round with a premium hand in the low limits.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
that's why you raise more in the first round with a premium hand in the low limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Run...

[viennagreen]

that's the main problem-- not raising more preflop... it's bad to not place a significant preflop raise at the 800 chip SNGs first round with a premium hand... people will still usually call--- none of the idiots have been weeded out yet

the small preflop raise--- you're right... betting again on the turn would probably be foolish after a flat call...

[viennagreen]

? i don't understand

[viennagreen]

preflop... raise more... maybe i didn't make that clear.

[rickr]

[ QUOTE ]
A nice 2/3 pot bet would do the trick. If someone comes over top of that, you just have to take your medicine and lay down the aces.

You just shoved all your chips in the middle on the very first hand on a scary board that against multiple opponents with a flop you didn't connect with, then said that "we" are chastising you for it. Uh, yeah - that hand probably could've been played a little better.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, a 2/3 pot bet, or 150+220 = 370. If one person calls everyone else will be getting good odds to draw. Now a 2/3 bet stands a much better chance of being called as well as someone trying to bluff you off. From my experience the majority of the people that push here with people left to act are on a draw. Even the set and 2 pair are slowed down by the monotone board, figuring wait for a brick on the turn. If he had flat called, or I had multiple callers, or multiple all-ins, I would have dumped. But the way this hand played out, I really didn't think I was behind at that point. I did not shove my chips in the middle with multiple players. I did overbet the pot trying to take it down right there. But all my chips didn't go in until a point I felt I was ahead. Would I have laid down with having 430 left. Sure. I have plenty of time to build my stack back before blinds get high.

Later,
Rick

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
when you drop 20+ buyins IN A ROW, then you are allowed to make a bad beat post. holla


[/ QUOTE ]

I've just lost over 20 buyins. I'm not posting bad beats (unless I can Hijack someone else's bad beat post).

That being said, my cat treads the office area very carefully (think punting).

[rickr]

The only reason I even felt this was a bad beat was because what villian was holding. Getting aces cracked happens all the time. That's not a bad beat. This one is boarder line at best. After all, he did have 5 outs not counting runner runner.

Later,
Rick

[Winwood]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had half potted you would have said I showed weakness

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't have;

[ QUOTE ]
Had I bet pot, someone would have said I needed to overbet with that many in to assure the bare ace would lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't have said that either.

[ QUOTE ]
Given the way the hand played out, what hand would you put villian on?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just think you are giving your opponents too much credit. Whenever trying to put an opponent on a hand, as well as thinking "if he played it properly he has x, y z", you have to also think "on the other hand, he could be a donk and have a-w as well" - its less likely perhaphs, but even so.

FWIW I think you were just p*ssed to see such a bad flop for your Aces, made a emotional overbet, and then couldn't get away from it.

[ QUOTE ]
Can't believe I'm taking this much crap on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, and if you are going to post bad beat posts, interesting or not, you gotta expect exactly this much crap - even from newbies like me

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I keep being told I played this hand wrong, But you don't say how you would have played it, and Raptor said he would check and fold it. (Insinuated, not said). Neither have said what hands would really be ahead of me here. If I had not bet, you guys would have flamed. If I had half potted you would have said I showed weakness. Had I bet pot, someone would have said I needed to overbet with that many in to assure the bare ace would lay it down. I have seen everyone of these answers given by you guys. Now. How is my thought process so fishy? Given the way the hand played out, what hand would you put villian on? A made straight? He called my raise first hand in a tourney with others to follow with 98o? A set? If so there is a chance he will lay that down, with maybe the exception of TT. JQs, QKs, JKs? Something like that. Yes possible. But probable? These are the only hands that are ahead of me at this point. All others are drawing. Now my bet showed strength. I took all drawing odds away for everyone. I shouldn't be reraised by anyone in middle position with the nuts. The nut should have smooth called, hoping to get later positions to come along. If he had smooth called, or anyone in late position had came along, I would have dropped. But do you really see this guy holding a monster?

Can't believe I'm taking this much crap on this hand.

Later,
Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW (not much) i can see at lower buy-ins this being not the worst call (AND IT WASNT!).

I feel overbetting pot on flop shows more weakness than underbetting here. It screams "i have no spades!" 2/3 pot bet would accomplish exactly what you did with your overbet most of time.

[rickr]

That is what I'm not sure of, the overbetting the pot. It could be taken as showing weakness. But like in this example. If donk had just called instead of raised all-in, everyone would have had proper odds to draw to the flush. Not sure which is worse.

Later,
Rick

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I even felt this was a bad beat was because what villian was holding. Getting aces cracked happens all the time. That's not a bad beat. This one is boarder line at best. After all, he did have 5 outs not counting runner runner.

Later,
Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh. this is my problem with the hand, ok?

all you had to do was NOT post it as a bad beat thread. all you had to do, understand, was say something like "how's my line with AA here?" then post the text of the hand, stopping with your final action on the hand, and people wouldn't be flaming you.

your hand was not, in any way, a bad beat. it was entirely standard for what goes on at the 800 chip games, and often above.

i also have problems with the fact that you clearly knew this, and then posted it in the bad beat format anyway, considering your quote above, and the general tone of this thread, i kind of hate you now.

shape up,

citanul

[adanthar]

That's why, if anything, you push and let the lone spades, and I suppose the occasional JTo, call anyway*. The other option is to check/fold, which would be fine with 4 people in but not so good with 2.

Raising more PF is OK if they will still call. If you tremble in fear every time your aces get three callers and raise to 125, then push every flop, it's scared poker.

*this line sucks if it folds everything less than a set, but we all know it doesn't because donks like calling

[stupidsucker]

I want to know too raptor... check?

Preflop you need to be way more aggressive then 70 chips preflop. First hand people are looking for action. sometimes I just dry push first hand with AA or KK in that position.

I dont check a flush board with aces. Instead I push it because I will have more in the pot to justify it. If someone has flopped a flush then boo hoo I deal with it, If a draw calls and gets there, I am still fine becase of all the times he whiffs or I catch a running boat.

As for any back door, I kick my cat, toke the vape, verbaly abuse the air, and look for my next set of aces to get cracked.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I even felt this was a bad beat was because what villian was holding. Getting aces cracked happens all the time. That's not a bad beat. This one is boarder line at best. After all, he did have 5 outs not counting runner runner.

Later,
Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh. this is my problem with the hand, ok?

all you had to do was NOT post it as a bad beat thread. all you had to do, understand, was say something like "how's my line with AA here?" then post the text of the hand, stopping with your final action on the hand, and people wouldn't be flaming you.

your hand was not, in any way, a bad beat. it was entirely standard for what goes on at the 800 chip games, and often above.

i also have problems with the fact that you clearly knew this, and then posted it in the bad beat format anyway, considering your quote above, and the general tone of this thread, i kind of hate you now.

shape up,

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

See Citinal? You havent lost it at all! I was doubting your tenacity there for a while but you've really bounced back the last few days.

dunno...just felt for sometime you were forcing it...the bitterness and hatred wasn't sincere.

Good to have ya back bro!

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

pooh


ps oh, to respond to your post. I agree that this was a bad format for OP and it has nothing to do with bad beats at all and is actually a "post worthy" hand...poor guy just messed up the subject line though...Ive seen worse.

[rickr]

[ QUOTE ]
I just think you are giving your opponents too much credit. Whenever trying to put an opponent on a hand, as well as thinking "if he played it properly he has x, y z", you have to also think "on the other hand, he could be a donk and have a-w as well" - its less likely perhaphs, but even so.

FWIW I think you were just p*ssed to see such a bad flop for your Aces, made a emotional overbet, and then couldn't get away from it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you would be wrong. I have laid down aces before after the flop. My original thought during the hand was A.) The original raise would get reraised. How often is that the case. B.) This was definitely a bad flop, damn I wish one of these was the ace of spades. C.) What size bet has the best chance of taking this down now or giving me the most info. Once he went all in, my thoughts were A. Would he play the nut that way with people to act behind him? B.) everyone folded back to me. Now of all the times I've seen this, what has been shown more often? The nut, a draw, or a set. On rare occasions 2 pair. Now he had to call my original raise with very odd hands from middle position to have the set, flush, or straight. So there is a good chance he is on the draw. Since this is the first hand, and I have a good chance of being ahead, I'll call.

Emotions didn't enter into it.

And you say I'm giving villian too much credit. Do you realize you can do that with every hand? You have to read the actions at some point. If you simply limp until you have the nut. You are in trouble.

Later,
Rick

[rickr]

Most certainly wish I had titled it differantly. As I've said, the only thing that makes it remotely a bad beat was his hand. Can't change the title now, so I guess I'm screwed. Oh well.

Normal

[tomdemaine]

fold pre-flop

[Winwood]

[ QUOTE ]
Emotions didn't enter into it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stand corrected

[ QUOTE ]
And you say I'm giving villian too much credit. Do you realize you can do that with every hand? You have to read the actions at some point. If you simply limp until you have the nut. You are in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

But I think you do need to do this every hand. And the more time the more accurate you should be able to be. This was the first hand and you risked you entire stack based on your read of an opponent. I think I would need a better reason to risk my stack on hand #1.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
fold pre-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

shut the [censored] up douchebag.

citanul

[rickr]

I would rather be too aggressive and lose my stack holding AA with a (what turned out to be a good one) read on the first hand then play aces too weak. Example. First hand a couple days ago. UTG raises to 500. Everyone folds. He rakes in his fine pot of 25 chips and shows AA. I typed "Nice raise with AA". He said "hate em, always lose with them". I typed "I understand".

I have no time invested at this point with a read that I believe is correct, and someone trying to hand me their chips. I believe that precisely because this is the first hand that this call is more correct, not less.

Thoughts,
Rick

[Winwood]

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather be too aggressive and lose my stack holding AA with a (what turned out to be a good one) read on the first hand then play aces too weak. Example. First hand a couple days ago. UTG raises to 500. Everyone folds. He rakes in his fine pot of 25 chips and shows AA. I typed "Nice raise with AA". He said "hate em, always lose with them". I typed "I understand".

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this guy was joking with you. I will very occasionally go all in very in a tourney with AA. It is surprising how often some donk with AJs calls. I think early one certain opponents just don't believe you have anything - they think you're a lunatic and want to catch you out. Anyway, I bet that's what he was trying.

[ QUOTE ]
I have no time invested at this point with a read that I believe is correct, and someone trying to hand me their chips. I believe that precisely because this is the first hand that this call is more correct, not less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, why is it more correct because this this the first hand? I don't understand you here.

It may be weak, but for the first couple of rounds I will not risk my entire tournament in 60/40 type situations.

[rickr]

I don't want to even play the first 2 levels. I would much rather get junk for 2 orbits at least. But. If I get a premium hand in the first 2 orbits and am going to get busted out, I would rather it be the 1st instead of the 20th. I don't have the time invested. It doesn't mean I should push any 2 hoping to double up or bust out first hand.
You have to play the premium hands, right? I'm just saying I'd be more inclined to call this being the first hand of the tourney, having a read on the play, than if everything else were equal 20 hands in.

Later,
Rick

[iMsoLucky0]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in sngs, you dont play poker. you play morons.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one of my favorite quotes ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

He stole it from me.

[TheNoodleMan]

so what you're saying is that on the very first hand of a SNG, you have a "read" that your aces are good against what is one of the worst flops that you could see?
You are kidding yourself. What did you base this "read" on? Its the first hand! That brings up another point, you are not going to win the SNG on the first hand, but can damn sure lose on it.
The reality is that you can't lay down your aces because you just don't have the discipline. What the other guy had is of no consequence. If he turned over A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif, would it have made your play any better or worse?

[rickr]

Not one person has argued my read here, or explained where my thoughts were wrong.
I have had people tell me I overbet the pot. That is a valid point of argument, and I will definitely concede that I may have been wrong on this. Fine.
But I am telling you, you are wrong that it was just that I could not lay down aces. This was not the case. Have I ever been guilty of not being able to lay them down. Guilty as charged. But not here. I actually thought this one out before I made the play. Was actually quite proud of myself for doing it. I felt it was a damn good call in a tough spot. If he had flipped over AKs I would have said "Well son of a ***" boy you read that one wrong. And fired up another game. You would put villian on AK spades. Wow your good.

Later,
Rick

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Not one person has argued my read here, or explained where my thoughts were wrong.
I have had people tell me I overbet the pot. That is a valid point of argument, and I will definitely concede that I may have been wrong on this. Fine.
But I am telling you, you are wrong that it was just that I could not lay down aces. This was not the case. Have I ever been guilty of not being able to lay them down. Guilty as charged. But not here. I actually thought this one out before I made the play. Was actually quite proud of myself for doing it. I felt it was a damn good call in a tough spot. If he had flipped over AKs I would have said "Well son of a ***" boy you read that one wrong. And fired up another game. You would put villian on AK spades. Wow your good.

Later,
Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think anyone is advocating putting villain on any particular hand here, but instead they are telling you that this flop will have you as a coinflip (at best) a majority of the time.

I think given the possible holdings of your opponent you may have proceeded with more caution, but hey, its difficult.

Villain's holding was a possibility, but with his push you have to concede it will only be a fraction of the time it will be an underpair with no spade that an opponent will do this...

In any regard...i wouldnt beat yourself up over this hand.

[rickr]

[ QUOTE ]
In any regard...i wouldnt beat yourself up over this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't say I need to. The board has done that pretty well already. lol

On that flop, what percentage of the time, with that action, at this level, do you put villian on the nuts / draw/ set/ 2 pair/ straight/ bluff? I'd be curious to see people's ideas.

Thanks,
Rick, today's punching bag is brought to you by the letter A

[Newt_Buggs]

well, I'm afraid that I actually think that he didn't play the hand too bad.
pf raise to t70: I do the same because Aces have such high implied odds at a $30. This is what often happens when I have aces: I raise pf, get a caller to two by hands that shouldn't even be limped, they make top pair, and I take their entire stack. In my experience, at the $30s my aces get paid off by TP or by someone chasing a draw much more often than i get outflopped

on the flop i bet less for the reasons already stated (i'de bet around t200). You can't assume that are beat and this will still get calls from the idiots with A/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif10/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

If the turn is safe, I fire out another t200. If you get checkraised on the turn, you are for sure beat. If you get called he probably has one of the above hands. Obviously this won't always be true, but this is just my take on the situation for what it is worth.

[TheNoodleMan]

Maybe I've missed it somewhere in this thread, but what are you basing this read on? Have you played with this persaon before?
You completely missed the point of my previuous post, It doesn't matter if he has A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif , Its a bad play by you either way. You have let the result of the hand cloud your perception of reality. In Poker, the end result does not necessarily justify the play. His bad play does not make yours any better.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In any regard...i wouldnt beat yourself up over this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't say I need to. The board has done that pretty well already. lol

On that flop, what percentage of the time, with that action, at this level, do you put villian on the nuts / draw/ set/ 2 pair/ straight/ bluff? I'd be curious to see people's ideas.

Thanks,
Rick, today's punching bag is brought to you by the letter A

[/ QUOTE ]

god, i dont keep stats...but here's my take.

You cant put him on much because of the size of your flop bet. IOW, he must know that youre pot committed so I cant see how he would attempt this w/o a huge idea that he is winning this hand. Looking at this hand in a results oriented manner (which is never good) this hand is all about him making the bad read, not you.

That said I will pull some numbers out of my a$$:

10-20% he is doing this with a set or two pair

30-40% a pair (either PP or flopped pair) with 1 spade. (this is what i would guess if I were in your shoes).

10-15% total bluff or pair (VILLAIN"S HAND).

10-15% idiot on a straight draw or made straight.

10% A/K spades X

10% made flush.

Does that even ad up to 100%?

this is off the top of my head in 5 secs so its pretty worthless.

My initial thought is what I stand by...he cant think you're folding unless he has you on nothing...

[rickr]

So around 60% of the time I am ahead here, by your a** estimates. 10% drawing dead, and 30% behind with draws, admittedly as small as 2 outs. Not sure about the pot committed part. How many people even think about this? But you do have a point. I guess it boils down to, how do you best play this hand to A.) win it when you are ahead, and B.) not get bluffed of it. Or do you simply dump your aces to a scary flop?

Thanks,
Rick

[nokona13]

I disagree that this needs to be raised more pre-flop. Clearly JTo is making a mistake calling your raise to 70. Raising to 100 or whatever just discourages this kind of mistake. Raising to 70 is enough that you'll rarely get more than 2 callers, and often just 1. I agree with the EP raise to 70 with aces on level 1.

I agree, however, that a raise to 150-175 here is better than the overbet. Would you ever bet 300 with the flush, or even if you had the ace of spades? If so, I think the way to make your play consistent is to raise to 150-175 with the flush too, rather than to 300 with the overpair.

[nokona13]

You're being super defensive about a hand you played badly. I think everyone who's proffered a real opinion (so not including raptor's semi-serious check/fold advice), has said a 2/3-3/4 bet on the flop, laid down to a push, is a much better line. You're saying this guy's such a donk, and you made the call based on the assumption that he was a donk or a LAG who pushed a monotone board overbet without being able to beat AA. If he's a donk or a LAG, however, he could have AsXs, KsXs, with X &gt; 8 or so, he could have QsJs, Js9s, or he could have any 89s or a set and not believe you have the flush. If you're going to make a call based on the assumption the guy's a donk, you have to include all the donk hands in his possible range. If you include all those hands, this is a very bad play. Maybe once you overbet and were getting almost 3:1 on the call, then you've gotta call if you think it's 25% he's got the ten paired and that's it, but that's pretty questionable too. Just because it turned out hte guy was a moron doesn't make your play less atrocious.

[rickr]

I had no intention of being super defensive about the play. I only really got defensive at the idea that I played this like this simply because of emotion, which is not true. My thought process may be off, but it was there. I simply found it interesting that I would get called by such a bad hand, and thought someone else might. My big mistake was my title, which took the heat.
I tend to agree that for a consistant betting pattern, all things considered, a standard 1/2 to 3/4 pot bet would have been a better play. Still not a hundred percent sure of laying it down to the push from that particular player, meaning position. Just think alot of the time you are ahead here. Just don't know which is more correct.

Didn't mean to piss in anybodies wheaties.

Later,
Rick

[raptor517]

if you are going to bet 300 at this flop, you are right, you are pot committed, and cant fold to a raise. that is why you DONT bet 300. on this flop, you dont want to get pot committed. period. its not worth it. everything and their mother beats you here. you are clouded right now by the fact that you got it in ahead against 5 outs and lost. that will happen oh, maybe 3.276% of the time. if you DO decide to bet this flop (which i really dont like).. shove or bet 150ish. NOT 300. if they push, u can fold. if they call, you can shove the turn if no spade falls. easy enough. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had not bet, you guys would have flamed

[/ QUOTE ]

i would have commended your amazing ability to play poker

hands that beat you.. here goes.. EVERYTHING EXCEPT top pair no kicker with no flush draw. EVERY OTHER HAND you are a coinflip AT BEST. set, 2 pair, pair and flush draw(14 outs). so you see, its not worth taking the risk in this spot. too many ppl fall in love with their aces, or bet WAY too much to protect them. this is just wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
These are the only hands that are ahead of me at this point. All others are drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hope you realize, that even if a hand is 'drawing', as you say, it can still be ahead. have u ever played omaha? you can be a 70/30 fave to win the ahnd, but be behind at the time. very easily. dont try to justify this by saying: 'but i had aces, they were PROBABLY ahead'. probably doesnt do crap for you here.

ok, off to find another response to comment on. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
win it when you are ahead

[/ QUOTE ]

well, pushing will ensure that you win it when you are ahead, but i really hate that line.

[ QUOTE ]
not get bluffed of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you get bluffed off of it, it is by a hand that is pretty close to even with you. not exactly a pure bluff.

[ QUOTE ]
Or do you simply dump your aces to a scary flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, i just know when i find myself in a -ev situation, and dont get involved. sometimes, even if you are 'ahead' as you say, its not worth playing. reference my AJ bubble thread a while back, and you will have a better idea of what i mean. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Not one person has argued my read here, or explained where my thoughts were wrong.
I have had people tell me I overbet the pot. That is a valid point of argument, and I will definitely concede that I may have been wrong on this. Fine.
But I am telling you, you are wrong that it was just that I could not lay down aces. This was not the case. Have I ever been guilty of not being able to lay them down. Guilty as charged. But not here. I actually thought this one out before I made the play. Was actually quite proud of myself for doing it. I felt it was a damn good call in a tough spot. If he had flipped over AKs I would have said "Well son of a ***" boy you read that one wrong. And fired up another game. You would put villian on AK spades. Wow your good.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, ill try to be as nice as possible.

i take more negative issue with this post than anything you have made thus far. you are simply clouding your mind with the thought that you were actually ahead here. i can almost guarantee that if he turned over AK of spades, you WOULD NOT have made this thread. period. you would have been like, 'oh well, i suck, next sng.' however, you were actually ahead, the 3.247% of the time you actually WILL be a dominating favorite in the hand. clearly you are both donks in this instance, for getting all of your chips in with VERY marginal holdings. aces are not the best hand in the game post flop. a lot of people have trouble recognizing that.

you say that you made a 'damn good call in a tough spot.' what you really did was make a damn awful play in an easy spot. again, you are tricking yourself into thinking you made the right play because of what the villian flipped over. poker has a way of doing that. you can THINK that you are playing great, making great reads, etc, when you are really just playing awful and are on a turbo heater. it will end. holla

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
hen you drop 20+ buyins IN A ROW, then you are allowed to make a bad beat post. holla



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I've just lost over 20 buyins. I'm not posting bad beats (unless I can Hijack someone else's bad beat post).

That being said, my cat treads the office area very carefully (think punting).

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, for the record scuba, im not talking about losing 20 buyins. thats a 5x a week occurance for me. im talking about losing them back to back to back without a single itm thrown in there for sanity reasons. yea, good thing i dont have a cat. holla

[rickr]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, ill try to be as nice as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Must say you did a damn fine job of it too. Get some rest from this morning? lol

OK, the concensus seems to be to bet 150 or so. From your posts it seems you disagree with this. Are you advocating a check fold here?

Only other question I have is, where did you get your 3.47% number from? My guess or ass estimate was much more often ahead than this.
I had to get my rear reamed from you guys for this hand, but at least I got a decent discussion and advise by the end. I guess it's the price you pay, lol.

Thanks,
Rick

[raptor517]

the 3.742 number is something my brilliant mind created.

i dont necessarily disagree with betting 150 here, though i think it might be leaking chips. dont get me wrong, im not going to flame anyone for betting 150 in this spot, and folding to a push. however, not many people are able to do that. after they put in that 150, they feel obligated to slide in the rest of their stacks. this is not good. that is why, for the more casual player, simply check folding is the more +ev way to play this hand. for a BETTER player, that can get away from his aces post flop on an awful one like this, betting 150ish could be the best way to go. holla