oh-no, I have to play post-flop?!?

[dfscott]

I didn't have much of a read on Button, but the two smooth calls worried me. I feel like I got into no-man's land with my flop bet. I didn't give any decent pot odds to draw, but it wasn't particularly intimidating either.

Would a flop push have been better here?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t675)
Button (t1390)
SB (t2010)
BB (t775)
UTG (t875)
MP1 (t1310)
MP2 (t965)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, Button calls t150, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (t375) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, Button calls t200.

Turn: (t775) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t325 (All-in)</font>, Button calls t325.

[The Yugoslavian]

Feel free to muck preflop.

Yugoslav

[ChrisV]

Yes, push the flop, but it doesn't really matter. Fine other than that.

[curtains]

I don't like to fold preflop. Sometimes you have to just play poker. AJ in the cutoff seat is too strong a holding to profitably fold.

[curtains]

Id push on the flop too...Board slightly too scary for my tastes. If it was A93 or something, then I'd be much more happy to encourage action.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

Sometimes you have to just play poker. AJ in the cutoff seat is too strong a holding to profitably fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure this is one of those 'sometimes'? Also, it certainly isn't too strong of a holding to fold in the CO.

As for 'profitably' folding this it's probably not CEV maximizing but at level 3 in a PP SNG you'd be hard pressed to exceed the $EV considerations of folding by much.

You're right, sometimes you have to 'just play poker.' It doesn't make sense to me that this is one of them.

Yugoslav
(who doesn't ever like to 'play poker' /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[SuitedSixes]

I'm on the fold pre-flop side of this. However, if you think that AJ is strong enough to warrant raising pre-flop then when you get an A high flop, you've got to go with it. If you are not going to be happy with an A high flop, fold next time.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't like to fold preflop. Sometimes you have to just play poker. AJ in the cutoff seat is too strong a holding to profitably fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, where do you come up with some of the stuff you write?

Irieguy

[curtains]

Man you have Ace Jack on the cutoff seat. I understand that sit and go's/limit holdem and multi table tournaments all have completely different strategies, but folding AJo on the cutoff here is just too far off base for my tastes.


(In limit holdem folding AJo when folded to in the cutoff would be tantamount to simply throwing money in the trash. In a multitable I can't imagine it ever being correct under normal circumstances. It's obviously a closer decision here, but I don't think it's close enough to make a fold the correct play.)

[GauchoFish]

i'd have checked the turn...he's not really gonna call an all-in without beating you...if he moves in on the river i'd scratch my head, mumble something about pot-ouds to my moniter and call, and immediately buy back in to another tournament.

[curtains]

Are you suggesting that it's correct to fold AJo preflop? Or are you responding in this fashion because my comments are worded poorly?

[DCJ311]

Folding preflop is the worst idea ever. Given the circumstances I think you played the hand fine.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Man you have Ace Jack on the cutoff seat. I understand that sit and go's/limit holdem and multi table tournaments all have completely different strategies, but folding AJo on the cutoff here is just too far off base for my tastes.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I neglected to mention that this is a 10+1 (although some of you have seen enough of my posts that you probably made that assumption).

I went through a similar thought process as the discussion on this board:

First: "AJo -- that's a trap hand early. Fold."

Then, with my mouse hovering over the fold button: "Well, I am in LP, and while it's still fairly early, I could add 10% to my stack with a steal. If I hit, I'm probably in good shape, and if I'm raised, I can always back off."

On the flop, my thinking was "sweet -- TPGK HU. I'm still a little jumpy from the pre-flop CC, so I'll put out a bet large enough to kill the draws, but not so big I can't get away from it if a bigger A comes over the top. And I might even get a call from a weaker A."

I think this thinking was flawed. A9 or AT might see my bet as weak and come over the top anyway. The only hand I'm really afraid of is AQ, since I think I would've been re-raised with just about enything else (although I've seen a lot of people CC raises with AK at 10+1).

The flop cold-call concerned me a lot. While I didn't think this player was tricky enough to trap, it sure looked like it to me.

I considered checking it down on the turn, but I know he's betting if I check to him and I think folding at that point would be criminal, right? The turn was effectively a blank, so I felt like now was the time to get my money in, but I realized that my bet really had no FE and I should've pushed the flop.

Is this line of thinking flawed?

Edit: reworded

[unfrgvn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Man you have Ace Jack on the cutoff seat. I understand that sit and go's/limit holdem and multi table tournaments all have completely different strategies, but folding AJo on the cutoff here is just too far off base for my tastes.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I neglected to mention that this is a 10+1 (although some of you have seen enough of my posts that you probably made that assumption).

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish it was mandatory for everyone to have their buy in, ITM, and ROI as their tag line. I would like to know how much that colors the answers to this hand problem. For myself, I agree with curtains and you, I don't think I'm folding this in this position, and if I am playing it I'm playing it for a raise. BUT, it makes me wonder if that's one of the reasons I stumble every time I try to move to the 20s.

As to the hand, I've played similiar hands in the past at the 10+1 and I think it's about 50/50 if you are ahead or not. I've been called in this spot with A3(one pair!), pocket K's(though you would expect a reraise with big pockets). It wouldn't surprise me to see him flip A 10 for two pair or even a set of aces.

Doug
Buy In: 10+1
ROI: ~25%
ITM: ~45%

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I wish it was mandatory for everyone to have their buy in, ITM, and ROI as their tag line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad it's not... I'd be too embarrassed to post...

[adanthar]

I like that raise when you start with 1K chips and/or have 1200 behind a lot more than when you have 675 and plan to 'back off if reraised'. Back off to where, exactly?

On the flop, there are no draws worth mentioning because he didn't coldcall exactly J9 and you're only scared of a gutshot. Either check or go all in.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I like that raise when you start with 1K chips and/or have 1200 behind a lot more than when you have 675 and plan to 'back off if reraised'. Back off to where, exactly?

[/ QUOTE ]

By "back off,"I meant let it go.

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop, there are no draws worth mentioning because he didn't coldcall exactly J9 and you're only scared of a gutshot. Either check or go all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

So are you saying that you'd be less likely to push with a drawless board? I think I'm a little weak on the when to push vs. when to bet a large fraction of the pot. In this case, I think it's a push due to my stack, but if my stack had been 1500 going into the hand, would this change the flop bet?

FWIW, it was the gutshot, plus a backdoor flush - villain had KdQd, and a flop push probably would've bought me the pot. As it was, the turn "blank" (which wasn't a blank at all) combined with my weak bet was just enough to get a call.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
By "back off,"I meant let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Let it go to where? You'll have 500 left if you miss and the blinds will probably be at 100 when they come back. This is a high variance play (especially because you also get called more down there) and you want more chips to make it.

[ QUOTE ]
So are you saying that you'd be less likely to push with a drawless board? I think I'm a little weak on the when to push vs. when to bet a large fraction of the pot. In this case, I think it's a push due to my stack, but if my stack had been 1500 going into the hand, would this change the flop bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Either way, you're way ahead or way behind. Gutshots don't inherently scare me enough to even take them into consideration. Instead, I want his chips, and I'm more likely to get them there if I...well, since he called 200 off with a gutshot, that works.

Normally, though, with your stack, I'd check against a LAG and push against a calling station. With more chips, I'd make a standard bet. The idea is to get him to put his chips in with 5 (really 3 because I'm aiming at Ax, but I don't mind KT) or fewer outs.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Feel free to muck preflop.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

That's incredibly weak.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
(In limit holdem folding AJo when folded to in the cutoff would be tantamount to simply throwing money in the trash.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been primarily a ring game player for the past 5 months, until I decided to spend more time on SnGs the past month. When I saw this hand last night, the first thing I thought of was the higher value I place on a hand like AJ than players who primarily play SnGs. Another hand I know I value a lot more is 99. I imagine the original poster feels the same way, considering he has been playing mostly ring games as well.

So what's going on here? We're the short stack 6 handed. Things aren't desperate yet, but it's getting close. We need to pick up some chips soon. AJ in CO, and it's folded around to us.

First thing we need to do is look at the stack sizes behind us and consider our reads on those players. The two biggest stacks at the table are behind us (bad), but the BB is pretty short stacked as well (good). If it were me, I'd have pokertracker running and would have a good idea on how loose those big stacks have been playing preflop. If they are fairly tight, I think this is an easy raise. If they're playing loose and more likely to call our raise, then we need to be more careful.

With position on the blinds, I still like a raise here. If the button is the main person I'm worried about calling, I'm more inclined to fold and wait for a better spot. But really, it's getting close to the point where we need to make some steals and/or we start pushing repeatedly. Are we likely to have a better chance and a better hand than this one to do that stealing? I'm skeptical... but maybe this is the aggressive ring player in me, and I need to rein myself in more in SnGs.

[PSUinDC]

Yug, I've been a lurker in these forums for quite some time, and I always see that you would "Fold Preflop" on a TON of hands that other people deem as good starting hands.

Out of curiosity, when you get down to the bubble, what hands do YOU play? I feel like you have to be one of those people that folds to every raise and steal attempt and fizzles out into 4th, but I know from your postings that you are not. I'm confused lol /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[pooh74]

this goes back to so many other threads which are related...why play this hand at all if youre gonna back off hitting your A? I think this hand is played perfectly IMO. Folding PF?!? maybe with 20 min blind increases...lol. yugo, could you expand on why this is fold PF? Im actually really curious as to your rationale.

[11t]

I might be high but here is my line with AJ int he CO.

Limp preflop in the CO, raise from the button fold to a raise from the button.

Bet the flop, fold to a raise.

[RobGW]

First off, you are shortstacked here. If you decide to play AJ for a raise, I think you have to be prepared to play for all your chips. Folding to a reraise is going to put you into a deeper hole. If thats your line then folding pre-flop would be ok. Second, folding here is way too weak imo. AJ is a fold at a ten handed table but at a six handed table folded to you in the CO? There are only 6 hands you need to be worried about. I understand that players can play different styles and both be profitable, but I would play it just as you did.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
this goes back to so many other threads which are related...why play this hand at all if youre gonna back off hitting your A?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not it.

If I hit my ace, I assume it's good since I don't have the chips to find out if he has AK anyway. The point is to get him to put his chips in with a second best hand like, say, JJ/99 or KT, and for that to happen sometimes you need to check and let him bet the 'scare card'.

The trouble with raising AJ here has nothing to do with hitting an ace. It's what happens when you hit a jack middle pair, or when the board completely misses you. This is not a hand you can easily afford to fold on the flop, and *that's* why you should probably fold here (unless you want to go all in, which may not even be that bad at 10+1).

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this goes back to so many other threads which are related...why play this hand at all if youre gonna back off hitting your A?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not it.

If I hit my ace, I assume it's good since I don't have the chips to find out if he has AK anyway. The point is to get him to put his chips in with a second best hand like, say, JJ/99 or KT, and for that to happen sometimes you need to check and let him bet the 'scare card'.

The trouble with raising AJ here has nothing to do with hitting an ace. It's what happens when you hit a jack middle pair, or when the board completely misses you. This is not a hand you can easily afford to fold on the flop, and *that's* why you should probably fold here (unless you want to go all in, which may not even be that bad at 10+1).

[/ QUOTE ]

no that is it...and you hit the nail on the head. With his stack size (13 BBs?) I think this is borderline push PF or fold...its that dusky area of a SNG where its getting dark and its almost time for dinner and there's no more playtime left...iow, you cant just see how you stand on the flop because by then you're not getting any more value bc of ur stack size.

I like this thread actaully bc it really is not a clear case either way (690 stack+CO+AJo+10+1SNG =highly borderline situation)...although id have pushed it...bc im not folding it, and im not raising it either bc id call an all in to my raise anyway with that stack...so push it would be...if that makes me a LAG/fish then so be it.

[rachelwxm]

The fact that many good posters have different opinions regarding this hand indicates this is a tricky spot and I think it is. I am no where close to the level of some of the other posters but I give it a try anyway.

First, I think one important piece of info missing is how many hands last before blinds increase to 50/100.

For various options hero has, here is my thoughts:

Pushing, not enough +EV unless you believe you would be called by AT. Huge variance. I don't like it. With any improvement of either position, cards or stack size, I would seriously consider this.

Raise 3bb and fold to a reraise. What's your plan if flop miss you? Now here is why I think blinds increase are important. Normally people expect PF raiser to take a stab, but losing 6bb if check raised and if blinds increase before it hit you. All of a sudden you are losing your FE.

Fold PF. Saving you enough FE for next level. With all the considerations above, folding is not horrible here.

Limp PF or min raise PF. If blinds increase before it hits me. In this particular situation, limp might not be a bad choice after all.

[Paul2432]

You can put me in the raise pre-flop camp. Once I flop TPGK on a fairly safe board I am willing to commit all my chips.

Frankly, I think people are letting the results of this hand cloud their judgement. At the right table open raising in the cutoff could be +cEV with any two cards. I think the OP got unlucky to get called, and very unlucky to get called by the button.

Paul

[rachelwxm]

[ QUOTE ]
You can put me in the raise pre-flop camp. Once I flop TPGK on a fairly safe board I am willing to commit all my chips.

Frankly, I think people are letting the results of this hand cloud their judgement. At the right table open raising in the cutoff could be +cEV with any two cards. I think the OP got unlucky to get called, and very unlucky to get called by the button.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do if you get one caller and miss the flop badly say K94?

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you sure this is one of those 'sometimes'? Also, it certainly isn't too strong of a holding to fold in the CO.


[/ QUOTE ]

This seems extraordinarily weak to me, you got to be thinking to steal here, and you will be good on the flop a good percentage of the time, I do same preflop and push on flop, if he has AT or A8 then [censored] happens.

Regards Mack

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
First, I think one important piece of info missing is how many hands last before blinds increase to 50/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

Early in the round -- this was only the 3rd hand of 25/50 blinds. The blinds will not increase before they hit me next.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting that it's correct to fold AJo preflop? Or are you responding in this fashion because my comments are worded poorly?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's challenging you to a HU freezeout for all of your chess winnings.

Oh wait, that can't be right.

Errr.....

Yugoslav
(he's saying folding AJ is a good idea, and he's also most likely cringing the way you seemed to bust a nut at the prospect of AJ on the CO)

[curtains]

I'm not excited to get AJo, but I know it's not correct poker to fold it here.
From the sound of Irieguy's post he made it sound as though it was just absurd that I would even consider playing AJo in this situation, so I just wanted to be sure this was the case before I responded in any way.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not excited to get AJo, but I know it's not correct poker to fold it here.
From the sound of Irieguy's post he made it sound as though it was just absurd that I would even consider playing AJo in this situation, so I just wanted to be sure this was the case before I responded in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]

The tone of Irie's post probably had to do with equal parts you wanting to play AJ and you stating it the way you did.

But I am only a simple Yugoslavian and not fully in tune with the Rastafarian Zen Tenets of the Irieguy.

Yugoslav

[curtains]

I have to be honest that I really find it just unbelievable that you guys think folding AJo is correct here. And I don't think it's any different whether you are playing at the $215 level or the $33 or $22 level, it's still a weak fold.

[The Yugoslavian]

[ QUOTE ]

I have to be honest that I really find it just unbelievable that you guys think folding AJo is correct here. And I don't think it's any different whether you are playing at the $215 level or the $33 or $22 level, it's still a weak fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

And we find it unbelievable that you think AJ is so strong here.

Let me put it this way (an analogy I actually used at the table today in discussion with the fishies to help them understand what I was talking about):

AJo = Corona
AKo = Heineken
AA = Guiness

Okay? Okay.

So, sure Corona's are okay and all but frankly I like to be holding a nice cold Heineken or Guiness in the above situation since, hey, I still have a big money clip in my pocket and the bartender has plenty of cold ones left.

But, if my money clip is getting tiny then a Corona starts to look real, real good. Not only do I not know when my next chance for a Guiness or Heineken will be but I sure as hell know I don't want to the only one at the bar stuck with a Rolling Rock come closing time.

Now, if that doesn't clear everything up, nothing will!!

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Yugoslav

[ZeeJustin]

I think folding this preflop is a TERRIBLE mistake. Shoving has positive equity, even if your hand is face up. If you think folding is corret, I really challenge you to prove that my last statement is false. Raising to 150 with your hand face down obviously has significantly more equity.

[DCJ311]

I would rank these plays here in order of preference:

1) Raise a moderate amount (125-150)
2) Raise allin
3) Limp
4) Fold

With T675, 75 chips is not an insignificant portion of your stack. If blinds were 50/100, this would be an easy all in. You will have the best hand here a great majority of the time, and may get action from weak players, while still retaining good fold equity, given your stack size. If you wait until the blinds hit you to start picking up blinds, your fold equity will go down, and you may not see a better hand to play before it's allin or fold time.

[ilya]

I don't really understand why you think it's so clear-cut, ZJ.

A 150 raise represent 22% of Hero's stack. If he gets re-raised preflop, what does he do? He needs to have a read on the raiser to make a good decision. First opportunity to make a significant mistake.

Say he gets flat-called by the BB. Hero's stack is 525 and pot is now 325. 1/3 of the time he'll hit, put all the chips in, and surely come out a winner on average. not too many opportunities to make a big mistake if he pairs. but what about when Hero misses? if BB bets, Hero's not deep enough to test him. if BB checks, Hero's gonna have to push if he wants the pot, so his 525 blufff into the 325 pot is gonna have to work more than 60% of the time. so again, Hero's gonna need to have a read on the BB. second opportunity to make a mistake.

If the button calls, Hero's situation's even worse. Now he has to act first...he'll get less value out of his hand when he hits, and be in an extremely awkward situation when he misses. Another big opportunity for making a mistake.

I am not saying I think Hero should fold. But I'm afraid of playing this hand, kind of like I'd be afraid of trying to pull off a difficult combo in a Street Fighter boss fight when I knew that button mashing was gonna give me a decent chance at victory.


edit: Ok, I suppose everything I said about the postflop play would also apply if I had AK. And yet open-folding AK here would be heretical. AAAhhhhh....I am tired and confused.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not saying I think Hero should fold. But I'm afraid of playing this hand, kind of like I'd be afraid of trying to pull off a difficult combo in a Street Fighter boss fight when I knew that button mashing was gonna give me a decent chance at victory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Translation: I'm not good enough to play this hand with positive equity.

Even though you might not be, I think most winning sng players that post on this forum are, and certainly all the 215'ers here are.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am not saying I think Hero should fold. But I'm afraid of playing this hand, kind of like I'd be afraid of trying to pull off a difficult combo in a Street Fighter boss fight when I knew that button mashing was gonna give me a decent chance at victory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Translation: I'm not good enough to play this hand with positive equity.

Even though you might not be, I think most winning sng players that post on this forum are, and certainly all the 215'ers here are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, that's it.

But dfscott is not a 215'er.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I have to be honest that I really find it just unbelievable that you guys think folding AJo is correct here. And I don't think it's any different whether you are playing at the $215 level or the $33 or $22 level, it's still a weak fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

And we find it unbelievable that you think AJ is so strong here.

Let me put it this way (an analogy I actually used at the table today in discussion with the fishies to help them understand what I was talking about):

AJo = Corona
AKo = Heineken
AA = Guiness

Okay? Okay.

So, sure Corona's are okay and all but frankly I like to be holding a nice cold Heineken or Guiness in the above situation since, hey, I still have a big money clip in my pocket and the bartender has plenty of cold ones left.

But, if my money clip is getting tiny then a Corona starts to look real, real good. Not only do I not know when my next chance for a Guiness or Heineken will be but I sure as hell know I don't want to the only one at the bar stuck with a Rolling Rock come closing time.

Now, if that doesn't clear everything up, nothing will!!

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, i always thought AA was a great hand...not warm, bitter and something to drink to feel more "manly". Dont understand why its so widely accepted that England and Ireland have the worst food etc...in the world, and yet, we think guiness=good...

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Even though you might not be, I think most winning sng players that post on this forum are, and certainly all the 215'ers here are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your FE in a $215 is significantly different from his FE in a $11. By significantly, I mean 100%.

Now that I think about it again in a $11 my preference would be push &gt; fold &gt; raise. 55 and KQ may call anyway but this way they don't *both* bet a third of the pot, then call the all in on a 9 high flop. And hell, A7 calls, too.

With the stack you have you're going to get outplayed postflop far more than your share due solely to not being able to put anyone in a $11 on a hand (as opposed to a $215 regular calling or pushing, where you can often tell more or less exactly what they have). So I'd remove that from the equation.

[ilya]

Thank you adanthar. This is what I was trying to get at when I instead gormlessly capitulated.

[curtains]

I think you guys are overrating the difference between $11s,$33s and $215s in this case. I think folding is the worst option at all levels.

"With the stack you have you're going to get outplayed postflop far more than your share due solely to not being able to put anyone in a $11 on a hand (as opposed to a $215 regular calling or pushing, where you can often tell more or less exactly what they have). So I'd remove that from the equation.

Just because some idiot at the $215 level calls my raise to 150 doesn't mean I know what he has or even what range of hands he has. btw if they flat call my raise here from the BB, they are more often than not a bad player. To say I'd know exactly what he has because he called is just not even close to reality.

Also if people are so crazy to be playing with absolute garbage, then you have great chances to double up this hand by either hitting the flop, or by him totally missing the flop and you picking it up with a postflop bet.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because some idiot at the $215 level calls my raise to 150 doesn't mean I know what he has or even what range of hands he has. btw if they flat call my raise here from the BB, they are more often than not a bad player. To say I'd know exactly what he has because he called is just not even close to reality.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blah blah this depends on who called blah blah but give me a $215 regular coldcalling the bet and a week of either datamining it or regularly playing it and I can put him on one of a dozen hands relatively easily and then probably be 80% sure of what to do on the flop. If that same regular pushes you and I both know exactly who makes that move with two cards and who needs something that beats AJo, and if I don't I find out 5000 hands on him later. It's a smallish pond up there and not rocket science.

Worst case, he calls and I have no read at all. OK, fine, I have to play postflop, but I don't have to do it all that often which is why a raise works.

The problem in a $11 is a)they're all bad and b)they're mostly crazy. This makes the game profitable but it also increases variance, which is not what you need with 650 chips left and AJo. Betting the flop when I missed it does absolutely no good because a good chunk of the time they're calling with any pair, any draw (things like a gutshot and an over count as a draw) and any ace if the flop is rags, but half the time they also bet all of those into you.

So, I just push and wait for Ax to call which he does anyway. Why play postflop when you don't have to?

[curtains]

I never had a problem with pushing. I have a problem with ranking a fold above a normal raise though.

[dvashun]

As a newb myself, I love this thread. I understand adanthar's thought of push &gt; fold &gt; raise. The original post states that the raise left dfscott "into no-man's land" and that is why fold &gt; raise. The raise is too much of OP's stack to give OP options if he misses. Taking a stab risks getting called, checking gives a free card. With push/fold options being the top two choices, you either push and see what falls or fold and wait for a better hand.

[DCJ311]

[ QUOTE ]

wow, i always thought AA was a great hand...not warm, bitter and something to drink to feel more "manly". Dont understand why its so widely accepted that England and Ireland have the worst food etc...in the world, and yet, we think guiness=good...

[/ QUOTE ]

The 'Guinness' hand of poker would be maybe an AKJ9 single suited in omaha high. I would classify a Chimay Reserve as the AA of NLHE. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Strollen]

Good thread.
While I certainly understand pushing here, I like raising better. You'll get called by a lot of hands far worse than AJ and most of the time win ~200 chips instead 75.

When the Ace hits on the flop, I push cause I'm not a good enough player, nor is my stack deep enough to try and extract more money. Admittly, if I am called post flop, I am probably beat...