KQs in 1st round $10+1 SnG

el Jefe · #1 07-01-2004, 11:18 AM

long time ring game player looking to mix in some tournament play. This was only the 5th hand dealt and I have no reads on the players.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

BB (t785)
UTG (t565)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
Hero (t800)
MP2 (t925)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t710)
Button (t1100)
SB (t740)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t30, MP2 calls t30, 2 folds, Button raises to t45, 2 folds, UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, Hero calls t15, MP2 calls t15.

Flop: (t250) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button bets t100, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t100, MP2 raises to t880 (All-In), Button raises to t1055 (All-In),

Hero ???

more outs than I can count, but it's early and I don't even have a hand yet.

-Jeff

La Brujita · #2 07-01-2004, 11:31 AM

My thoughts:

1. Preflop you shouldn't raise here I don't think. If you do raise here, a mini raise is not the way to go. You should make a bigger raise. The reason you don't raise is you don't mind a volume pot and you can't stand the heat against a big reraise.

2. Post flop with this big of a flop I am happy to back it with all my stack. Leading out with a slightly smaller than pot sized bet seems fine but given stack sizes I prefer a check raise all in.

If you had no read I still would have called the all in bet most likely but that is a much weaker choice than you putting others to the decision.

2planka · #3 07-01-2004, 11:32 AM

I'm probably incorrect, but I fold here. Non-nut flush draw with 2 all in? I'd rather let them fight it out. The AsJs could be out there, the button could have something like QQ, or there could even be a set of 7's, J's, or 10's. I'm not liking the K high 4 flush against those. Monsters under my bed?

Edit: I'm basing this on how you played the hand up to this decision point.

Hood · #4 07-01-2004, 11:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm probably incorrect, but I fold here. Non-nut flush draw with 2 all in? I'd rather let them fight it out. The AsJs could be out there, the button could have something like QQ, or there could even be a set of 7's, J's, or 10's. I'm not liking the K high 4 flush against those. Monsters under my bed?

Edit: I'm basing this on how you played the hand up to this decision point.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a non-nut flush draw, straight draw, and two overcards. As OP says, more outs than you can count. But I think I'd fold this against 2 all-ins so early on.

2planka · #5 07-01-2004, 11:45 AM

Yes, I forgot to mention the "early" part. Still, I wonder if I'm still thinking too tight here. Interested to see more opinions.

Jason Strasser · #6 07-01-2004, 11:49 AM

I really don't like the min. raise. It really serves no purpose. </voice on>Limp along, country road, to the place, you belong... </voice off> (the flop)

On the flop, I think people who go with the check/call line are misplaying the hand. I am a big fan of the check raise all-in here. You are probably slightly ahead, and you can gain folding equity by making others make hard decisions. The problem is, since you min raised this hand, opponents may put you on a big hand and it could check through. That's not a horrible outcome, but it makes the play on the turn very hard if you miss. I'd check raise all-in.

As it stands, I think your decision on the flop is tough. It could've been made easier by not playing it so passively. I think playing scared of AJs and other hands like that is a classic case of "mommy, there are monsters under my bed!" You should really assume that you have the best flush draw.

I probably make the call.

BigJohn043 · #7 07-01-2004, 11:51 AM

I am no expert, but let me take a try at this...

Either really raise the flop or limp, the min raise does no good.

I don't know what to make of the button's min reraise, but I would take it to mean he is clueless.

On the flop you should either bet the pot or look to check raise. So you check and the button makes a wimpy bet less than half the pot. You have to push here.

You don't and then MP2 does and the button calls. Note that if you pushed you could have likely isolate one of the two, probably MP2 who is first to act after you.

At this point you have lots of straight and flush outs, although some of them may be tainted. You could be facing TPTK, but more likely either a set, flush draw or straight draw. I wouldn't be surprised if someone has AXs. I think I fold it at this point and wait for a hand where I haven't been so passive...

el Jefe · #8 07-01-2004, 12:41 PM

Thanks for the input everyone. I'm now even more convinced I played it horribly on most every decision I had to make. I hate the preflop min raise (stupid 1BB raise button) and I probably should've bet out on the flop or c/r all-in. I agonized over the all-in call until the timer ran out and I folded. Given how I had botched the hand up to that point I still think the fold was ok, even though it turned out to be a mistake. Anyway, here's what happened.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

BB (t785)
UTG (t565)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
Hero (t800)
MP2 (t925)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t710)
Button (t1100)
SB (t740)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, 1 fold, Hero raises to t30, MP2 calls t30, 2 folds, Button raises to t45, 2 folds, UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, Hero calls t15, MP2 calls t15.

Flop: (t250) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button bets t100, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t100, MP2 raises to t880 (All-In), Button raises to t1055 (All-In), Hero folds.

Turn: (t2285) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t2285) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t2285
Main Pot: t2110 (t2110), between MP2 and Button. > Pot won by Button (t2110).
Pot 2: t175 (t175), returned to Button.

Results in white below: 
MP2 shows Qd Tc (one pair, tens).
Button shows As Jd (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Button wins t2285.

AtlBrvs4Life · #9 07-01-2004, 01:13 PM

I would have probably called here. The majority of the time, you have at least 15 outs. Probably more. You are getting amazing pot odds and you're going to more than triple up on this hand at least 50% of the time.

Looking at the results of the hand, you actually had more than 15 outs. You were about a 57% favorite to triple up after the flop against those two hands.

NegativeEV · #10 07-01-2004, 01:54 PM

I find a lot of value in Strasser's posts in general, and I track with the suggested play of limping preflop and check raising all in on flop. However, given the play as it did happen, I'm confused by the the last line of this post "I probably make the call". The two preceding all ins tells me that button probably has a set or two pair at least (coupled with buttons min-raise preflop which I could see as an attempt to pump the pot on a medium PP). If so, my 15 outs may not be good as a full house is possible. I'd discount my outs to 10 or so and would avoid making this call with less than a coin flip.

Strasser please let me know where my thoughts are off base here.