Turn/river question with second pair in position.

TRWIII · #1 06-30-2004, 12:47 AM

No reads (just sat down).

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
5 folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, CO calls.

Flop: (7 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB calls, CO calls.

Turn: (5 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB calls, CO calls.

River: (8 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Results in white below: 
CO shows 9h Td (three of a kind, tens).
Hero shows Jh Qd (two pair, queens and tens).
SB shows Ad 5d (one pair, tens).
Outcome: CO wins 8 BB. 

I like the raise preflop on the button against a poster who checked and the blinds (may be wrong, but I don't think its far wrong if it is). Flop bet was, I think, pretty standard.

This is where I have a question. Was the turn bet a good thing? I'm of two opinions myself, but since I picked up a few more outs (up to 9 with the 2 queens, 3 kings, and 4 to the gutshot) and I thought it was reasonable that my hand was still good, I bet and gave them the chance to fold.

What about me checking through the river? I couldn't see any hand calling me that I beat and I sure didn't feel like getting raised with my hand, so I think it might've been correct too.

All that said, I'm still not sure how well I played the hand, so, as always, any thoughts would be appreciated.

TRWIII

MicroBob · #2 06-30-2004, 12:52 AM

i like your decision on all streets.

i would PF raise in this spot as well.

checked to you on the turn and you indeed did have a chance that your hand was best.

i like the cautious play on the river as well....for the reasons you stated.

TRWIII · #3 06-30-2004, 12:57 AM

Thanks for the reinforcement here, I thought it was probably right, but I had an absolutely terrible poker day and that tends to have me second guessing what I know to be right.

Oh and the SB makes into my friends list because he calls all the way with hands that bad and worse all the time [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

Thanks,
TRWIII

Jonny · #4 06-30-2004, 01:32 AM

I like your play on all streets here.
No problems whatsoever in my opinion.

HajiShirazu · #5 06-30-2004, 02:14 AM

Well played IMO-good hand.

waynethetrain · #6 07-05-2004, 05:44 PM

I have a few questions on this hand. With a pair of Qs, he has second pair after the flop.

1. Why is it correct to bet 2nd pair after the flop?

2. If someone raises should the Qs then be folded on the assumption that someone has the pair of Ks? If the raise should be called, do you then fold the turn if you are unimproved and the same player bets again?

I realize it is weak to check the Qs and then fold if someone bets.

However, in the past I have often found myself betting 2nd pair and just getting called by top pair. Then I bet further if I get more outs (just like in this example) only to find I have made a huge losing donation while being beat all the way by playing 2nd pair aggressively.

I have also found checking the 2nd pair to be a problem. If I check, any bet puts me in a bad position of potentially folding the best hand. When it is checked around, I then find myself with the assumption that my Qs were actually good and I've given a free card that might be the one that beat me.

joker122 · #7 07-05-2004, 06:37 PM

You played the hand perfectly, IMO. Betting the turn was correct as it bought you a free showdown. I would have checked any river here that didn't improve my hand.

joker122 · #8 07-05-2004, 07:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

1. Why is it correct to bet 2nd pair after the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds kind of ridiculous, but he has the "lead" in the hand at this point. By betting he maintains the lead and gives himself many options for the rest of the hand (i.e. free card or free showdown). He also may very well have the best hand. He also may get a weak king to fold. Lastly, he is not giving a free card to any drawing hands.

[ QUOTE ]

2. If someone raises should the Qs then be folded on the assumption that someone has the pair of Ks? If the raise should be called, do you then fold the turn if you are unimproved and the same player bets again?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's checkraised on the flop he has an easy call as there are 9 cards he'd like to see on the turn (the remaining Qs, Js, and Ts).

[ QUOTE ]

However, in the past I have often found myself betting 2nd pair and just getting called by top pair. Then I bet further if I get more outs (just like in this example) only to find I have made a huge losing donation while being beat all the way by playing 2nd pair aggressively.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why he took a free showdown. I can't make any meaningful comments about the above situation you describe because every situation is unique. Post some hands and you'll get good advice from everyone here.