Battling the monkies

[chromakey]

In low-limit stud, say you have either (AA)X or (XA)A, you're betting hard each round but still everyone calls you. Inevitably, somebody catches something to beat you on the river or anywhere else in the hand. This seems to happen a lot, how do you combat this? Do you slow down your betting until your hand improves or do you try to punish them for drawing on you hoping they miss?

[CJC]

Hello,

You mention low limit Stud. Are you referring to spread limit or structured limit betting? Depending on just how many people are "fishing", will ultimately determain your strategy.. Just remember you want your Aces played against a small number of opponents..

SO how do you do this?

If it is structured betting, if raising on 3rd or fourth fails to limit the field significantly, then you are often better slowplaying and waiting to raise ( or fold ) on 5th street when the bet size doubles.. There is excellent reference to this in 7CSFAP ( loose section )

In spread limit games, I find utilizing the check-raise whenever possible to be a useful tool..

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Do you slow down your betting until your hand improves or do you try to punish them for drawing on you hoping they miss?

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Generally you bet or raise when you have the best hand.. Answer this question..It is sixth street and you have unimproved Aces and there are four other opponents; One has a four flush and a pair of nines, another has a four flush and a pair of sixes,another has a straight draw, and the last has someother pair.. Who has the best hand? ( without getting technical... its the concept people [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] )

CJ

[Andy B]

Fold them face up on third street. That'll get their attention.

It is not "inevitable" that you will get outdrawn. Sometimes you'll buy a second pair, and that is frequently enough to win, even in a multi-way pot. If you make trips or a full house, you can win a big pot if someone else makes something along with you.

Pairs do better heads-up than multi-way, because most of the time you'll make two pair or less, and that doesn't stand to win a multi-way pot. Aces-up will win more than its share, but those Aces still fare better in a two- or three-way pot than in a multi-way pot. I still hammer away on third and fourth street. If nothing else, you're getting more money in with what is presumably the best hand. On fifth, see what's out there. If the boards are starting to look scary, you may want to check, and perhaps fold depending on the action. By sixth, if you haven't bought any help, it is unlikely that you have the best hand in, say, a five-way pot. Take the free card if you can. You might and might not bet Aces-up on the end against three or four opponents, depending on what you think they were drawing to. Worse hands will call, of course, but if a guy has a flush draw and only a flush draw, he will fold if he misses and raise if he gets there, so there's no value in betting there.

This post brought to you by Florida's Natural Lemonade. We have a job interview tomorrow. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[Michael Davis]

"We have a job interview tomorrow."

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Michael

[MRBAA]

This is the classic reverse implied odds situation that occurs in low limit stud or hold'em. As CJ's example shows, at some point your odds of winning the pot are going down faster than the odds the pot is laying you. This doesn't always mean you should fold, but it often means you shouldn't be the one betting (or calling raises) on fifth street with just one pair.

[studplaya]

well of course it depends on your opponents boards and the action in a particular hand, but statistically aces actually do well against a large number of opponents, especially if totally live. You can check out Konstantine Othmer to verify that if you like; so I would say in general u want to push them at least until 5th when the bet size doubles, and then if facing two or more threatening boards u might check if you haven't improved to trips or 2 pair; otherwise I would continue to push unless raised because your hand is strong but not strong enough to give a free card in a multiway pot; and if raised ur going to call anyway at least until 6th where u can make a decision if you are facing something really scary like a 4 flush board, trips on board, etc...then it's a judgment call based on pot size and odds, the liveness of your cards, and perhaps most importantly knowing ur opponents..

studplaya

[Andy B]

You don't expect me to get by on my poker winnings, do you? Certainly not if I keep going to all these damned concerts.

[MBTIGUY]

This thread has really helped me think about one of my probable big leaks - overplaying and overstaying unimproved Aces (or Kings). Thanks, everybody. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

MRBAA - that's about the best ever description of reverse implied odds. Very helpful.

Andy - good luck on the interview!

[timmer]

According to Othmers study on 7 stud, A's increase in percent return with up to 4 opponents then the increase slows a bit then flattens out significantly at 6 opponents.

after 5th street A's and spaces wont get too much in a multiway pot with many callers A's up will win its share.

the time to slow down is when your side cards die and your aces die or someone pairs in the open or throws a reversal at you when a raggy card hits.

you might consider folding when someone shows a mighty strong board and bets or raises a multi way field and you cant improve to beat the hand they very likely have. they might throw a reversal at you or check raise. a few players will check raise as a semi bluff but not many LL players will do this. the "tricky" ones are likely to minimize their winnings by dogging you till the river and give you the best chance of tripping or filling just so they can lose 3 bets to you there.

[CJC]

Hello,

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statistically aces actually do well against a large number of opponents

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Ummmmm... No

( Now if all your opponents are playing trash.. then thats another story though )


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and if raised ur going to call anyway at least until 6th

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So you always call with a single pair of Aces if raised on 5th? Play in my game anytime.. and I truly mean anytime..

CJ