Advice from a Friend

[Michael Davis]

I limp in an unraised pot with ATo from the SB. We go to the flop six ways. The flop is KT7 rainbow, and I come out betting.

Is this a good bet?

If I don't bet, what is my plan if the BB comes out betting and a few people call? What if nobody calls? What if it gets checked to the button, and the button bets?

Pretend I limped with this hand preflop UTG. (No preflop insults necessary, let's just say I did.) Do I bet here? If not, at what point in the progression of passivity do I come out firing?

Please consider your answers before continuing.

The reason I ask this question is because this hand was posed to a noted poker authority who is not Ed Miller (note the lowercase letters!). On the actual hand in question, I came out betting on the flop. This was deemed a "terrible play." Furthermore, the authority instructed me that I could not even call a bet from the BB because my ace outs were tainted by QJ.

-Michael

[astroglide]

the reason for betting would be to get a queen or a jack to fold, but it's usually not a good idea because with that many players on a coordinated board at least one call/raise (often with a king) is likely enough. by checking, you can often gain enough info to merit a clear fold for FREE.

this also allows you to checkraise if it goes to a late position opportunist who bets just because it was checked to him - better accomplishing the goal of the Q/J shutout than the initial flop bet.

[badinfluence]

I think this is a pretty bad bet 6 handed. I think being UTG doesn't help your case all that much.

If it gets checked around, I'd bet about 1/2 to 2/3 the time, depending on the turn card.

[Michael Davis]

Suppose in the situation where I check and the BB bets, I am getting 10-1 on a call here and I close the action on the flop, you think I should fold?

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

If it were checked around, I would bet any turn card other than a Q or J.

At what point in a group of six players would you bet with this hand?

-Michael

[astroglide]

no. i would call and fold the turn unimproved. if this circles back to "why not bet if you plan to call?", the difference is that getting raised when you bet sucks. if you get to close the action for 1 bet, you know exactly what you're spending to see the turn, and you are guaranteed to see it.

some of this could certainly change depending on how tight or how aggressive your games are.

[Michael Davis]

Yes, I like this way of playing the hand, and understand that you do not want to get raised on the flop. But I think the advice given to me, that I can't ever call a flop bet with this hand because of QJ, is fearing monsters under the bed.

I also don't think betting this flop is a terrible play, but it probably isn't good, either. The board is too coordinated, and I'm not really going to know where I'm at if I get a few calls.

-Michael

[astroglide]

i agree that not calling the flop because of QJ is monster-fearing.

[Bandorn]

THANKS, GOOD POST. aND A GREAT RESPONCE. My understanding is Due to the large amount of callers, Check second pair. And play in responce to the action. But with only say 3 callers, Yuo can lead out with flop bet,( AS per basic HPFAP) ?

[elysium]

hi mike
i've been up for over 48 hrs., maybe 3 total hours sleep. i'm no good to you in this spot as confirmed by yahoo chess play, and wouldn't be any good in that spot fully rested, but i usually do some pretty mean things to boldtoilet. well he got me.

you limp, hmmm. the limp is o.k.

there are good solid games where the instruction in this hand is applicable in the case of having a flopped top pair either A or T in a field of 4 or more. against that many opponents, from the SB, you check, and hope the bet comes from last position and that this opponent is the type that likes to bet when checked to. look left. if there are no aggressives in the field, and the field between you and the LP are weak/ tight. they don't have to be weak/ tight types, just weak/ tight in this hand at this very instant, then raise provided the LP let's you know that he doesn't have top pair, and that the MP's who you aren't certain about because you couldn't get a read from everyone, are in any event not going to check-raise.

if you are successful and get heads up or 3-way, you must bet into your opponents everytime. the reason is because if you are successful here, you are against draws, lower pairs, and thin draws, being played by weak opponents who are not comfortable calling on the flop, or calling because of field action weakness in the case of the LP bettor. if a non-weak type is in MP, and plays well post flop, you were not successful. the flop screen of the field failed. it happens sometimes. just like boldtoilet said today, 'it happens.'. if something goes awry and the turn doesn't produce a completed draw, but you are no longer sure that the MP qualifies as a weak, giving it up is fine. check-fold the turn.

with 4 or fewer opponents in the hand, you should bet out. if you have a J9s say, and flop top pair of 9, even against 5 or 6 opponents, it's usually correct to bet out. if it looks like there is a reasonable chance that if you check you might get heads-up against a favorable type opponent, go for the drive-out check-raise. that's not the case with this one, however.

your hand is not a betting hand. you are looking for one and only one scenario; a situation that finds you in the very best seat to check from, against a field of opponents, the inverting of whose action will give your position drive-out betting power, and get you heads-up or if 3-way, either leading or solid pot odds on a fold-out, and in either case, little risk of raise. the river is often bet due to having opposition vulnerable to a fold-out bet.

notice also that you will never be in the progression of passivity, or if you are, you can't like it a whole lot. passivity kills your play. if, for this one hand, you were allowed to check and have the option to act once again on the flop if the flop got checked around, you must not bet. you would check the flop down and bet out on the turn, if given that option just this once. notice that it is your forward motion into weak/ tight field conditions. you at the top with a double sized bowling ball, weak/ tight pins at he bottom. the LP climbs the ladder between the button and blinds, hands you his bowling ball, and says, 'here, roll two.'. in fact, if you had a passive who checked along passively, but who would likely call your raise, then you shouldn't check-raise the flop. if the LP was passive, you'd have a flop check-around. betting out is o.k. usually, but notice that if raised, it cost two, not one small bet. if raised, i like folding. the reason i like folding rather than calling, even if i'm right at pot odds to call, is for another time. hopefully now you understand what a real qualifying process this hand must have the field undergo before you can enter it. you bet strongly into only those who qualify.