Taking advantage, ethical question

TheGrifter · #1 06-24-2004, 09:33 AM

This situation arose in a Live Casino NL game. I was sitting at a table where I recognized a few regular faces but knew no one. A young asian kid who was sitting next to me started chatting with me and we talked for most of the 12 hours I was there.

After a few hours the kid says, I hope we don't get involved in too many pots together, I don't want to take your money. I responded that he seemed like a nice guy but I was going to do everything in my power to send him to the felt.

The funny thing is, as play continued it seemed that he wasn't just talking. If we were HU in a pot he would generally check it down after the flop and my raises were getting absolute respect. I play tight anyway, so it is possible that he simply didn't want to get involved against my possible range of holdings, however he was generally rather loose/aggressive so I think it was more than that.

Of course I started to use this to my advantage and took a good chunk of change from him, checking my draws to get free cards and bluffing liberally. Does anyone see anything wrong with using the psychological edge that you have against a player that "likes" you?

zuluking · #2 06-24-2004, 10:07 AM

Take all of his money. A 12 hour session? You addict you!

TheGrifter · #3 06-24-2004, 10:17 AM

Heh...12 hours was actually my shortest session in the last couple of months. I was proud of myself for being able to leave the table before hitting the 24 hour point.

Transference · #4 06-24-2004, 10:33 AM

I find many players go easy on me because of my almost superhuman good looks and charm....

Seriously though this ones pretty clear cut. If you don't want to take money from nice people, don't play poker. You told him how it is and were open about your intentions. Well done, thats certainly not required but its classy.

Now if you gave him the impression you that your not going to bet into him unless you had the nuts and exploited that, well that would be a little shady.

It's okay to feel a little guilty about taking money from somone that 'likes' you, its not ok (if you want to win) to give money way because people are freindly.

nothumb · #5 06-24-2004, 12:56 PM

I found myself in a similar situation last time I was at Foxwoods, at a table with one total lunatic and a bunch of retirees. I was generally friendly while playing and chatted with a few of the older guys. When the new kid sat down they were all sick of him in one orbit, but usually wouldn't call him down without the butternuts. So they appreciated it when I started firing back at the kid (and picking him off on a few bluffs). It got to the point that I would three-bet middle pair, top kicker into this kid because I was so sure I had him beat, knowing that the retired guy with top pair, no kicker would probably fold. It wasn't explicit but I was clearly making money off A. the fact that these guys liked me and B. the fact they hated and were scared of the other guy. Whereas they would grudgingly call him down, they would let me push everyone out of the pot with no complaints.

I didn't have any ethical issue with it, although I was thinking more about my $250 loss on the way home than who's money I briefly plugged the holes with in the interim.

NT

TheGrifter · #6 06-24-2004, 01:09 PM

It's interesting that for all the talk about shooting angles to put people on tilt and distress them it is possible that you can gain just as large an advantage (while sitting with recreational players) by being friendly.

nothumb · #7 06-24-2004, 01:10 PM

Why not, they're there for recreation. It's like paying someone to hang out with you, or getting a mail order bride.

Anyway, I wouldn't think somebody named "TheGrifter" would have any ethical issues, period. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

NT

cusss · #8 07-06-2004, 08:05 AM

i,m confused as to why you even asked this question.
poker is a game of deception.its in its nature.take advantage of any......ANY.....situation that gives you an edge.(maybe not cheating).you should have played this guy untill you did put him to the ground.this may sound a little harsh but if you are worried about ethics dont play poker.

StellarWind · #9 07-06-2004, 11:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i,m confused as to why you even asked this question.
poker is a game of deception.its in its nature.take advantage of any......ANY.....situation that gives you an edge.(maybe not cheating).you should have played this guy untill you did put him to the ground.this may sound a little harsh but if you are worried about ethics dont play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
This disturbs me.

Poker is a game. Games by definition have rules. It is not wrong for a poker player to wonder whether his actions are ethical.

The faction in the poker community that believes "anything goes" really disturbs me. I recently read an article by a respected columnist that seemed to suggest that it was acceptable to ply a problem drinker with alcohol despite the obvious objection that the player would eventually drive home.

News flash: both the recent popularity and even the legality of poker will not last unless the public perceives the game as good clean fun. Yes, bluffing and coffeehousing and all sorts of deception are part of the game. So is ruthlessly pressing legitimate advantages against all opponents (even nice ones).

But take advantage of any situation? Not worry about ethics? Yuck.

Laomedon · #10 07-06-2004, 12:20 PM

I fully agree with this statement. While agree that the nature of poker dictates using all possible advantages to defeat one's opponents, I think that there are lines that decent human beings should not cross. Collusion/cheating is clearly one of these lines. I also believe endangering a player's safety whether it be through keeping the booze flowing or other means is detestable as well. I would hope that good poker players would prefer to use their skill at the game to win, rather than use cheap and immoral means to do so.