My first foray back to the $50 tables.....

Gomez22 · #1 06-21-2004, 09:20 PM

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.50 BB (5 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($75.60)
Button ($6.75)
Gomez22 ($50.70)
BB ($146.20)
UTG ($22.90)

Preflop: Gomez22 is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls $.5, 1 fold, Gomez22 completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Gomez22 bets $1.5, BB folds, MP raises to $3, Gomez22 calls $1.50.

Turn: ($7.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Gomez22 checks, MP bets $2.75, Gomez22 calls $2.75.

River: ($13) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Gomez22 bets $5.5, MP raises to $29.5, Gomez22 calls $24.

Final Pot: $72
Main Pot: $72, between MP and Gomez22.

Although I don't think it's a good idea, being that I just rivered top-2 here, should I push behind his monster raise??? The way I figure it, I've got about $24 left behind when calling his raise, and you know he's pot committed....

Thoughts?

2283 · #2 06-21-2004, 09:28 PM

i would have just called on the river too, nice hand.

SkippingGoat · #3 06-21-2004, 09:52 PM

Did you have a read on this player? What did you put him on? He's been playing the whole hand strong (he bet when you checked and raised both your bets). It's hard to put him on AQ when he riased big after the K fell. AK? Also possible but he played it a little strongly with only overcards and he didn't raise preflop. Q8 or other two pair? It depends on whether he's been playing these cards in the past. He most consistently played this hand with a set or overpair. Since you beat anything other than a set I reluctantly call the raise but don't reraise.

Sandstone · #4 06-22-2004, 01:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He's been playing the whole hand strong

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a min-reraise on the flop and a less than half-pot bet when checked to on the turn qualifies as "strong"

I'm going to guess that he showed either AK, KQ, or, most likely, some other garbage Queen that he was trying to push you off your "lone king" with.

Gomez22 · #5 06-22-2004, 08:30 AM

MP shows Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Sometimes I just can't believe it.....

schwza · #6 06-22-2004, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MP shows Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Sometimes I just can't believe it.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think MP played it poorly? Keep in mind the river raise is (exactly) a pot-sized raise. If I were him I would bet somewhat higher on the turn and raised somewhat lower on the river (hoping to keep a hand like QJ in), but I don't think it was awful.

MVicuna · #7 06-22-2004, 06:59 PM

Hi,

He really likes his hand, why bet into him on the river? He raises the pot as he would do with a set given the K shouldn't hurt him.

This post turned out to be long, in Summary, Luckly this was a BAD player. Don't expect to make that $24 call and still drag a $75 pot given the way the hand was played unless you *know* they over play hands and will get pot commited with weak hands.

Do you have a specific read that says he'll check behind with a hand you beat thus you miss value on your rivered 2 pair AND he'll raise you on the river with a hand you'll beat? This reasoning only makes sense if you've put him on a lower pair or a bluff on the flop. You left out your read on him and your reasoning of why you did this. I dont think there is a lot to discuss other then a reasonable opponent would have taken a huge chunk of your stack as the line he took is the typical line of a set on a drawless flop.

If you just always call to the river with TPGK after being raised and bet into on the turn and the raised on the river you have grown to used to playing against truely horrid opponents. Add in the fact you *thought* about going all in also shows your only playing against very bad players.

He's line wasn't that awfull, he raised the SB who bet into an unraised pot with TP, got called, hit 2 pair on the turn and you just passively called. His river raise was incorrect as your bet on the flop means you have some piece of it and your bet on the river says the K helped you. Your play screams kings up. This was his bigest mistake, the weak turn bet was bad too, but not so bad considering he had 2 pair that used the Q.

Lets look at your line.

1 LP limper and the BB you have KQo you have the best hand preflop. You should raise here to knock out the BB and get it HU. You don't. Thats ok. No real harm.

You flop TPGK on a prety safe board. You can go for a bet, most of the time everyone folds and you win a tiny pot, this is where raising preflop builds a better pot, or you can give a free card with a somewhat vulnerable hand, you'd not want to see an A/J/T/9 on the turn as you could start to see a lot of action from better hands, so an bet here is called for I think.

You get raised. This is some reason for concern. It is an unraised pot, so hands like Q8/q2/88/22 are not out of the question, but we decide to call. Maybe we are seeing what happens on the turn. He could just be making a positional raise with a weaker hand to see if I was trying to steal the pot.

The turn brungs the 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. He bets 1/3 the pot. This feels like a value bet or a bad bluff. Lets pretend we are drawing live and look at the math.

Lets pretend your drawing live, any K any, Q and any of the 3 outs that dont give him the FH. You called 2.75 you need to be able to draw a pot of around $10. You can call here and not be losing money, if you feel he's on 2 pair that don't use the Q, but you can't call if you feel he has the over pair, TPTK, or a Qx 2 pair. The slim chance he has a set your drawing dead, but we are ignoring that for some reason.

Lets pretend your drawing to just the K. That requires a pot sized of around $27.

You hit your 2 pair. You assume its good, thats why you bet, the problem is, in most of the cases where you are drawing to the winning hand, You need to be check-raising to recoup the costs of getting to showdown If he just calls You've lost money most of the time, if he makes the right read and lays it down, you've lost money, if you are drawing dead your about to lose a BIG chunk of your stack.

Your line is only good if you know your opponents is over playing a pair less then Q's most of the time. Your check/call on the turn says you don't believe this is true, you feel there is a good chance he has a hand that beats TPGK.

Thanks,
MarkV.

Gomez22 · #8 06-22-2004, 07:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have a specific read that says he'll check behind with a hand you beat thus you miss value on your rivered 2 pair AND he'll raise you on the river with a hand you'll beat?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but his turn raise, being weak as it was, led me to believe that he had either a draw or LESS than a set. I think if he had a set, he'd either try to win the pot there, or check-raise it... a $2.75 bet into a $7.00 pot seemed VERY weak to me in this situation and with there being no draws on board at the turn, I figured him for a queen with a weak kicker, maybe AQ or even something like A8, where he was raising on the flop to try and buy it, and bet again on the turn thinking he'd win it that way.... little did I know it was Q5s.

When the king came on the river, giving me top-2, I felt I had the best hand, but wasn't completely convinced of it, but I thought of how a set would be played, and even though this is close, I wasn;t at the table long enough for him to get any reads on me... had only been in 1 pot before this, and sat for maybe 30 hands before this.

[ QUOTE ]
Your line is only good if you know your opponents is over playing a pair less then Q's most of the time. Your check/call on the turn says you don't believe this is true, you feel there is a good chance he has a hand that beats TPGK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I felt that 2-pair was a possibility here, but I also felt that MP or TP with a bad kicker was possible, too... I didn't actually PUT him on a hand, I felt there was an equal chance for him to have any of the 3 hands I listed, hence my flat call. I know that 66.6% of the time(considering my reads are correct), I'm ahead here and should check-raise or even bet out on the turn, but I was lost until the river on this hand, when I felt that I DID have the better hand. Too bad I didn't feel strong enough with that assumption to push behind his raise, but that's life and poker to a fledgling like me....

Thanks, MVicuna. As always, your replies are well thought out, and explained in a easily understandable manner... much appreciated.

'Mez

Gomez22 · #9 06-22-2004, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think MP played it poorly?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure about whether he played it poorly or not.... I probably would have potted it on the turn when it was checked to me if I were him, having 2 pair and all, and maybe checked the river through with a call on the turn or made a value bet of 1/2 pot or so if checked to me, flat calling any bet by SB on the river in his position...

Not saying his play was bad, per se, just that I can't believe a limp there with Q5s....

Gomez22 · #10 06-22-2004, 08:13 PM

Should I be trying to put players on an individual hand, or should I be putting them on ranges?

Right now, I would guess I'm about 50-65% of putting them on ranges(of course, sometimes they fold, and I have no idea, but I kinda consider this a read in most cases), and maybe 10% accurate on actual hands, although that may be a little high....

For bigger games, I'm sure I'll need to be able to place opponents on hands much better than I do now, but I'm just wondering if putting them on ranges is a good thing or not, especially when I'm only about 65% max on that...

Thanks,

'Mez