My Challenge to you: Move Up

[Beer and Pizza]

By being willing to take some additional risk, we will be making money. By moving up more quickly than an equally skilled but more risk averse player, we will leave them behind. The difference is not small, it’s not just double by doubling the stakes, the player who moves up more quickly makes a lot more money. The player who won’t move up until he has that 300 bet BR will still be playing $1/$2 while the guy who accepts the risk of moving up with only 200 bets (and maybe had to start over once or twice) is playing $5/$10.

I think that many discussions tend to take bankroll considerations much too seriously for low limit players. It seems to me that a novice might come away with the impression that a person must or should have that 300 bet BR before even attempting to play. That ain’t right.

The concept of BR protection really only applies to a (winning) professional player who intends to play a given game for an unlimited period of time AND who has no other source of income. A small bankroll is easily replaced but losing a big bankroll is a disaster. It’s like, if you have some sort of income, a job, an unemployment check, a girlfriend with a job, it’s not really very hard to come up with a buy in for a low limit game and start over, but if you’ve built a six digit BR you really really don’t want to risk losing it all.

Understand that my intention here is not to pressure you to move up faster than you are ready for, but rather to give you something to think about. I started out slowly too, playing .5/1 and then 1/2 for about two years (I also always start at 1/2 when playing a new online site, but that’s a different story). When I finally decided to take a stab at the 5/10 I was startled to find that, well, some of those guys played just like the people in the 2/4 games – the chips were different colors, but the game was very much the same.

I conclude now that I probably could have moved to 5/10 after two months rather than two years – because I had prepared, studied (not read) the books. That cost me some money. BTW, I’ve played some 10/20 and think I could probably make more than I earn at 5/10 but, well, I’m just not comfortable at that level; it’s just not fun anymore unless the game is particularly juicy. So, a lot of it is personal preference and comfort level – just be aware that there are significantly greater rewards for taking somewhat greater risks.

[GoSox]

I agree there is some logic in your advice. Of course, you spend a page suggesting people move up sooner, and then finish by saying you won't because you're comfortable at that current level. Hmmmm, is 5/10 the only level where that applies ?

[eugeneel77]

moved from 1-2 to 25-50 in less than a year. I don't think it gets much faster than that.

now after almost 2 years I am at 100-200 and have nowhere to go from there [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

(online anyways)

[Beer and Pizza]

[ QUOTE ]
moved from 1-2 to 25-50 in less than a year. I don't think it gets much faster than that.

now after almost 2 years I am at 100-200 and have nowhere to go from there [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

(online anyways)

[/ QUOTE ]

My life is complete.

The platform for Eugene's bragging has been built and the brag has been delivered.

My work is done here. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Thythe]

Don't worry, it's been confirmed that he really moved down from 1/2 to 1cent/2cent on Paradise. Guess not everyone can be successful.

[Blarg]

The 300BB bankroll is a good general rule, but like all rules, you have to examine very carefully the ones you really want to live by. You pay a price for everything you do without thinking.

I think it's very important that you mention the difference between reading and studying. Reading can do almost no good at all, or save you years of effort and having to try to come up with your own insights -- and of making sub-optimal earnings. Someone who really studies will be much more prepared to move up quickly than the average person. So they can be more flexible about how fast they move up, all other things being equal.

I agree also that replacing a small bankroll can be a trivial matter for some people, so sweating about that too much is more appropriate for some people than others. Hopefully, though, you don't get into losing just because you can afford it. Tons of people do.

It's always a problem to have the personal honesty and insight, though, to determine whether you really ARE the kind of guy who can bend the rules and go against the common wisdom. Probably most people who think they can, actually can't. Then again, once you've done the best you can to prepare, there's only one way to find out.

[ZeeJustin]

I agree with the sentiment that while playing 1/2 and below, players do not need a bankroll.

[ QUOTE ]
and think I could probably make more than I earn at 5/10 but, well, I’m just not comfortable at that level;

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhhhhh. What? Could you run the whole point of your post by me again? Cuz I think I lost it when you said you're uncomfertable moving up.

[submariner]

Suppose I have 350 dollars in Party, where I am currently playing .5/1. I decide I will have a go at 1/2. I will sit down with 50 dollars, and if I win, will continue at 1/2. If I lose the 50, I go back to .5/1 till back up to 350, (all the while studying, posting hands, etc), then try again. I don't have the "bankroll" for 1/2, but I get the chance to move up with a .5/1 bankroll and ROR, as long as I am diligent about not playing anything greater than .5/1 at any level below 300 dollars. If I do well, I do the same thing at 600 dollars, moving up to 2/4. Does this sound reasonable?

[eggzz]

I did an interesting thing. I started with $0 in my bankroll. By playing with Ultimate Points at UB, took 2nd in a $5 7CS tournament, for $92. I then built that into $200 by grinding it up at .10/.25 NL $25 games. I then jumped to $2/4 short handed limit and built it up to $900 in about three weeks. I got a little greedy and went up to $3/6 short handed and got clubbed. Down $350 in a weekend, so I cashed out $400 and then played with the $150 I had left. Jumped in a few $20 tournaments, andeventually lost the rest.

I then started all over again from scratch, took 5th in a $5 limit tourney of 171 people for $48 (also via Ultimate Points). I'm now playing $.50/1 shorthanded and up to $110.

For me, I like doing this, once I get up to $200, I'll go up to $1/2, then move to $2/4, try to cash out $500 and do it all over again.

I think starting from scratch helps keep me sharp. The limit I am probably most successful/comfortable at is probably around $1/2 right now. I like freeing up cash every once in a while and I'm not into building and growing a bankroll to get up to $5/10 right now. I think I need more seasoning. I think this is the best way for me to become a well rounded player.

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Suppose I have 350 dollars in Party, where I am currently playing .5/1. I decide I will have a go at 1/2. I will sit down with 50 dollars, and if I win, will continue at 1/2. If I lose the 50, I go back to .5/1 till back up to 350, (all the while studying, posting hands, etc), then try again. I don't have the "bankroll" for 1/2, but I get the chance to move up with a .5/1 bankroll and ROR, as long as I am diligent about not playing anything greater than .5/1 at any level below 300 dollars. If I do well, I do the same thing at 600 dollars, moving up to 2/4. Does this sound reasonable?

[/ QUOTE ]

As a matter of fact it sounds like the Open Internet Challenge.