PLO High only hand - opinions needed

Barbos · #1 06-14-2004, 06:24 AM

Hi!

Here is the hand history:

Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.50 BB (9 handed)

Button ($234.47)
SB ($28.80)
BB ($21.50)
UTG ($67.45)
UTG+1 ($24.50)
MP1 ($47.65)
MP2 ($34)
Hero ($25.05)
CO ($21.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to $1.75, MP2 folds, Hero calls $1.75, CO folds, Button calls $1.75, SB raises to $3, BB calls $2.50, MP1 calls $1.25, Hero calls $1.25, Button calls $1.25.

Flop: ($15) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets $14.25, Button folds, SB calls $14.25, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: ($43.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $11.55 (All-In), Hero calls $7.80 (All-In).

River: ($62.85) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $62.85
Main Pot: $59.10, between SB and Hero.
Pot 2: $3.75, returned to SB.

Actually I have very little reads on SB since I was playing with him first time (about 20 min). I noticed that he played too much starting hands and was calling enough often. But this information is very poor and I had no idea what hand he re-raised preflop with.

What do you think about my preflop play and play on the flop?

Regards,
Barbos

Kurn, son of Mogh · #2 06-14-2004, 10:37 AM

Fold preflop.

Once your big bet is called on the flop and the SB bets into you when the J falls on the turn, it's pretty hard to believe you're ahead. I'd have a hard time calling off the rest of my chips there in the faint hope he doesn't have JT or JJ in his hand.

Hopefully he didn't have TT.

Buzz · #3 06-14-2004, 11:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think about my preflop play and play on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Barbos -

I don't really know pot limit Omaha-high, so I probably shouldn't stick my nose in here. But I have some thoughts and they might be useful to you.

Pre-flop - 1st betting round: I don't think you have a very good starting hand and you also don't have good position. This time the hand worked out well for you, but I don't think the hand does well often enough to make up for the times it doesn't do well. I'd fold before the flop.

• Post-flop - 2nd betting round: Since you played the hand and flopped a full house, I think you play your flopped full house. If you can't bet the pot when you flop a full house using your pair of sevens, then you shouldn't be playing a hand with a pair of sevens in the first place. Therefore, if you must see the flop with this trash, then I think you make a pot sized bet on the second betting round. Otherwise don't see the flop with the hand.

• Post-flop - 3rd betting round: From the betting, I'd put SB on JTXX after the turn. Here's the two step reasoning involved in that conclusion. It's not deep.
• step one: When SB calls your pot sized 2nd round bet it looks like SB has a ten.
• step two: Then when SB freely bets on the third betting round after the jack appears on the turn, it looks like SB has a TTTJJ boat.

• Another (more remote) possibility is SB has JJTX and thus has a JJJTT boat.
• An even more remote possibility is SB holds 7TXX, flopped a TTT77 boat, and somehow slow played it. That line of play doesn't make much sense to me and thus a TTT77 boat seems more remote as a possibility than a TTTJJ boat. It's a moot point anyhow, since either hand is better than your 777TT.
• a total bluff? It's possible. This is the part that's hazy for me, since I haven't played the game much. Is SB capable of calling your pot sized bet on the second betting round with nothing (except maybe an overpair) and then bluffing when a higher card appears on the turn? Seems a better bluff play for Texas hold 'em than Omaha. With four cards, if you don't have JTXX, there's a very reasonable chance your opponent does, more so than the possibility of a Texas hold 'em opponent having the two cards required to make a full house or quads.

Thus SB having a TTTJJ boat is not 100% - but I'd bet on it.

Meanwhile you have only a 777TT boat before the river. If SB does have a full house, it's better than 777TT....

... and the only card that can help you on the river is a seven. The odds are 21 to 1 against a seven on the river.

Since you're not getting anywhere close to 21 to 1 pot odds for your all-in call, you have unfavorable odds to call the bet on the third betting round, even though you have a full house (an underboat) yourself.

SB should recognize that it's more likely than not that you either have a TTT77 boat, a 777TT boat, or at least a ten with some big cards to go with it when you bet the pot on the second betting round. When SB freely bets on the third betting round, SB is either bluffing, expecting you to fold, or has a better full house. A bluff in this betting sequence, while not impossible, seems a remote advanced play.

Therefore, in my humble opinion, you should fold to the bet costing you $7.80 on the turn.

It all worked out for you anyway this time. But note that you get better odds playing roulette than you got on this hand, drawing for a seven on the river.

Anyhow, congratulations on your win.

Be interesting to read what someone who knows the game better than me writes.

In summary, I think you should fold on betting round #1, and having failed to do that, I think you should probably fold on betting round #3. I think your pot sized bet on betting round #2 was fine.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Beavis68 · #4 06-14-2004, 01:03 PM

A pair of sevens is not a playable hand in PLO. And you probably know that playing the non-nut boat is always dangerous.

curmudgeon · #5 06-15-2004, 12:28 PM

You started with a mediocre hand, IDIOT!
but since you're a gambler I guess you're going to play the boat for your small stack. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Saucy · #6 06-16-2004, 08:54 AM

You are taking way too much abuse for the way you played this hand barbos. Yes pre-flop you have made a pretty big mistake by ending up with an eighth of your small stack in the middle.

But after that your hand plays itself in exactly the way you played it.

Maybe the other posters are ignoring the small nature of the game, but once you have correctly bet the pot on the flop and got a call, you have to stick the rest in on the turn.

Without yet knowing what the sb had (which he would bizarrely make a minimum reraise with out of position) I don't understand everyone else's negativity post-flop.

sb calls your pot bet on the flop. Calls, doesn't raise? Are we supposed to believe he has T7? If he has an unfilled ten then he is chasing you.

Fact is, at these limits people will play the hand like that with a straight draw or an unimproved AA.

Barbos · #7 06-17-2004, 03:57 AM

Thank you very much all for your comments!
Now I realized that my hand was nothing to get excited about. Although I had a pair of 7's, some straight and flush potential but the card were too small in rank. Next time I must be very careful to call such raises with that garbage.
I called SB pre-flop raise of $3 because there already were 3 players in and button would call the raise for sure. So I had good pot odds.

Concerning my call on the turn...
I don't understand how I could throw away my hand after SB had betted. When SB called my pot size bet on the flop I put him on TXXX or TX and a big pair (maybe AA). Of course J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] was not that card I wanted to see. But SB could bet because:
1. He could still be drawing to a higher full-house and would call my all-in anyway (he had good pot odds). So he just betted himself (not so rare play).
2. He could bet his unimproved AA.
3. On the turn he could get good straight draw [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] That's more remote possibility but I saw it pretty often on party that people draw to a straight/flush when board is paired.

I would consider folding after his bet on turn if I was more deep. But I had to call only 8$ to win the pot of 51$. Pot odds were more than 1 to 6. Too attractive to fold the hand.

I think, my biggest mistake was to call pre-flop raises with that mediocre hand.

To the SB's hand: he showed 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (four of a kind, tens). I can understand calling min raise with this hand but re-raise with that rag on SB?
By the way, he lost all his money in the next 15 min. Unfortunately, not to me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Regards,
Barbos

Barbos · #8 06-17-2004, 04:01 AM

Buzz,

Thank you very much for your post. As usually you gave very deep and good analysis which I find very helpful for me.

I really enjoy reading your posts.

Regards,
Barbos

crockpot · #9 06-18-2004, 06:07 AM

this isn't the kind of hand i would want to call a raise with preflop. if you hit a set it can easily be beaten, and your straight chances are weakened by the two gaps. i would much rather have a hand like 7765.

on the flop, you have to bet this hand so no one makes a free higher full house on you. you probably won't get a lot of action from hands without a ten on the turn anyway, if you check.

as for the turn, this bet is very suspicious. to play this way with a ten (not T7xx) would certainly be odd, but not out of the realm of party $25 players. so there are four possibilities:

- he flopped quad tens or tens full
- he turned jacks full
- he has 98xx and turned a straight
- he has a big pocket pair and was going to call you anyway, so he figures he may as well bet

given your 7:1 pot odds i would probably call here, but i wouldn't be that happy about it. with more money on the table i would be likely to fold.