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#1
06-12-2004, 11:37 AM
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Raise the flop or the turn? You play it.
I've seen quite a few posts (in SS & ML) lately debating whether is better to pop the flop or wait til the turn. The other posts have the Hero holding top pair. I just wanted to get your opinions on another hand, so play along.
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls. Flop: (12 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font> SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero thinks... What should the Hero do and why? 
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#2
06-12-2004, 12:01 PM
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Re: Raise the flop or the turn? You play it.
Raise flop. There are lots of potential draws out there, anyone with an ace will call two anyway, and CO has already called so you know at the minimum, CO and MP2 will call again.
If its 3 bet, cap. If not, same strategy on the turn if someone leads (unless of course a card like the Jack of spades hits and you might consider just calling). As you said in your description, this is not a top pair vulnerable to overcards type of hand, but rather a situation where you want to get as much money as you can before seeing another card. DeathDonkey
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#3
06-12-2004, 12:24 PM
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Re: Raise the flop or the turn? You play it.
Dont get fance. Keep it simple and just raise. Reason: you have the best hand and want to extract the most of the lesser hands, but since the board is two-suited it is important to get the money in on the flop. As someone else said, you want to make the other players pay for a chance to outdraw you.
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#4
06-12-2004, 12:35 PM
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Re: Raise the flop or the turn? You play it.
[ QUOTE ]
since the board is two-suited it is important to get the money in on the flop. As someone else said, you want to make the other players pay for a chance to outdraw you. [/ QUOTE ] So will the draws fold on the turn or will they go to the river? If they're going to the river, and my goal is to charge them the maximum, then wouldn't it make more sense to call the flop and raise the turn for a total of 2.5BB, rather than raise the flop and bet the turn (2BB)?
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#5
06-12-2004, 01:37 PM
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Re: Raise the flop or the turn? You play it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] since the board is two-suited it is important to get the money in on the flop. As someone else said, you want to make the other players pay for a chance to outdraw you. [/ QUOTE ] So will the draws fold on the turn or will they go to the river? If they're going to the river, and my goal is to charge them the maximum, then wouldn't it make more sense to call the flop and raise the turn for a total of 2.5BB, rather than raise the flop and bet the turn (2BB)? [/ QUOTE ]The draws would, but a weak ace won't after he puts you on a big hand. Moreover, now they'll often put *you* on a flush draw and call the river when it misses.
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#7
06-12-2004, 03:09 PM
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Re: Raise the flop or the turn? You play it.
[ QUOTE ]
As someone else said, you want to make the other players pay for a chance to outdraw you. [/ QUOTE ] You're not exactly charging a good draw here. In fact, a flush draw, with enough callers, is breaking even or making some money on the flop. It's not necesarily about 'charging' them in this situation. b
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#8
06-12-2004, 03:12 PM
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Re: Raise the flop or the turn? You play it.
[ QUOTE ]
now they'll often put *you* on a flush draw and call the river when it misses. [/ QUOTE ] This about the flop? They'll put you on a wide range of hands other than a flush draw here. If many on the table would 'wake up' on the turn with a set, they'll less likely put you on it by jamming the flop. At best, they'll likely think you have 2 pair. Because that's what 'they'd' be jamming with. b
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#9
06-12-2004, 03:13 PM
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Re: Raise the flop or the turn? You play it.
Of course, whether or not he will get many callers if he raises depends heavily on his read of the players to come. Since we are not provided with a read in the original post, the best we can do is provide a generalization about play at this limit, which dictates that there is indeed a good chance they will call the raise.
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#10
06-12-2004, 04:18 PM
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Re: Raise the flop or the turn? You play it.
[ QUOTE ]
So will the draws fold on the turn or will they go to the river? If they're going to the river, and my goal is to charge them the maximum, then wouldn't it make more sense to call the flop and raise the turn for a total of 2.5BB, rather than raise the flop and bet the turn (2BB)? [/ QUOTE ] This makes alot of sense, and I agreed with it when I first read it because flush draws ALWAYS seem to hang around. If you raise the flop, they will call and then go into check/call mode on the turn. However, what will you do if a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <yikes> hits on the turn?! Your plan to raise the turn may be "ill-advised". Raise the flop...MAKE THEM PAY!!
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