Middle Limit Hold'em

[Mikey]

What would you do in this situation. I got this from the Bob Ciaffone and Jim Brier Middle Limit hold'em book.

pg. 194 Problem 15

A $10 - $20 game. After two early players limp, you raise with AhKs in middle position. The button, big blind, and limpers call. There is $105 in the pot and five players. The flop comes: 8h 7d 4s, leaving you with overcards. Everyone checks. The turn is the Kd, giving you top pair, top kicker. The big blind checks. The first early limper checks. The next early limper bets.

What would you do and why?

[steveyz]

I'd raise and consider folding to a 3-bet back to me. The EP limper who bets could have KQ/KJ or a flush/straight draw with JTs/T9s. He could also have flopped a set. With both a flush and a straight draw on the board, I don't want anyone who's behind to see the river cheaply. I'd think EP limper betting into me is the best thing that could happen here.

[mike l.]

i would raise. the guy betting probably has a worse K or worse and i want everyone to get the hell out of my little pot and leave me alone. i dont want some creep hanging around and making 2 pair or a straight which they are all too happy to do in my regular game. yes i know theyre getting crappy odds, but they are sometimes dumb enough to call two bets anyways so they will just have to pay.

[Dynasty]

I consider calling here since the first two players don't seem to like their hand after checking twice. I'm more than happy to let them draw to a straight with a 6 or 5 in their hand for one bet. The same goes for the Button who I doubt has much either.

[Senor Choppy]

I'm with Dynasty here. There are no overcards to worry about. There are no 1 card open-ended straight draws. The only legitimate draws are 5 outers or a flush draw. There seems to be little reason to try to shut people out here.

If the board were 876 or 875, I think it would make raising appropriate, but as it stands, given the size of the pot, calling looks good to me.

[China Willy]

[ QUOTE ]
I consider calling here since the first two players don't seem to like their hand after checking twice. I'm more than happy to let them draw to a straight with a 6 or 5 in their hand for one bet. The same goes for the Button who I doubt has much either.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my original "hmmmm" instinct, but I generally pause to think critically about my first (raise) impulse when I read a hand posted here.

That said, I think a raise is better than a call here -- three reasons:

1) If the other player has a flush draw, you get it heads up in a pot that is already 6 BB and get the bettor to put in another BB while he's still drawing, which you're unlikely to be able to do on the end after he's missed. AND

2) the fact that the others don't seem to like their hands enough to bet also suggests they're unlikely to call anyway. Why get fancy and screw around here? I agree with Dynasty's suggestion that you wouldn't mind letting guys draw to a 5 or a 6 for a BB, but if the bettor has a flush draw, the last thing I want is to throw a gutter or two and/or a couple of 5-outers in there when I could have gotten it heads up. AND

c) I semi-bluff/isolate a bet right in front of me on the turn as much as I can profitably do so and it helps to balance my image in this respect when I flip up the goods.

-CW

[DeucesUp]

I think you've got to raise here.

There's 6 BB's in the pot now, I think calling to build a bigger pot is mistake. By putting the 7th BB into the pot you're giving 5 outers (any flopped pair w/ non-A kicker) and the 6 outers (any flopped pair + gutshot) the correct odds or very close the correct odds to call. Let'em make a big mistake. You're also giving the flush draws much better odds (though they'll come along now anyway).

[colgin]

I agree (surprise!) with Dynasty. You should not be so worried about the players to act behind you since they are probably likely drawing very slim against you and a cheap card does not hurt you in that respect. The second limper who bet into you is another matter. Your pre-flop and flop action has pretty much narrowed, if not outright given away, your hand for a thinking player. Is the bettor in this example a thinking player? If so you have to ask yourself why this limper is betting into a player who is just likely to have made top pair. Against a thinking player you have to consider that you are behind and don't want to open yourself up to being three-bet if you are. You might think that the better is just betting his flush draw against a large field. However, if he has (correctly) put you on AK he would be better off checking to you and letting you bet your top pair in the hopes that everyone calls rather than risking a raise from you that would clear out the field and kill his drawing odds. What if he is a less than thinking-opponent who would have limped here with something like KQ, KJ or KT and nows bets into a hand that he is likely dominated by. Aren't you still better off letting him fire away at you again on the river? At most you make one extra BB off him if he calls the raise and then check-calls the river. This is probably made up for by overcalls fom the drawing slim to none crowd behind you. I think calling lets you win the most when you are ahead and lose the least when you are behind here.

Colgin

[anatta]

Brier assumes that the opponents are reasonable thinking middle-limit players, so you are correct in your point that the other player should read hero (who is assumed to be a tight raiser) for AK. When hero tells the table he has AK, and the king comes, and opponent bets out, I think Brier prefers to see the showdown for two big bets, perhaps draw out on a two pair hand, rather than raise and risks a three-bet. The flop got checked around, maybe foiling the betters planned flop check raise with a big hand. Dynasty pointed out that the pot size and the read on the players behind indicates a turn raise may not be that advantageous.

[joker122]

One thing that everyone is overlooking: the flop play. What do you all think of that?