Ugh, what an awful session

ddubois · #1 06-11-2004, 08:27 AM

Won $350 last night, and was on cloud nine; tonight down $250, struggle back within $75, then go on the worst streak ever and finally throw in the towel when I'm down $450 in almost 900 hands. Lost with flush twice (of 5), set 3 times (of 4), even house once - my set, his two pair, you can guess the river. People slammed runner runners, 2, 4, and 5 outters into my head all night. I had a run where I lost KK QQ KK KK AA in like 15 minutes. For the night I was 0 of 3 with AKs, 2 for 8 with AKo, 2 for 7 with AQo and 4 for 10 with KK... Blah blah blah, I know you don't want to hear this crap. But god this game is frustating!

At least 50$ of that was due to my mistakes though. I am wondering if I make crying calls too much... like this one, I know I'm beat:

HAND KK:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button raises, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (12.66 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.66 BB
Main Pot: 15.66 BB, between Hero, CO and Button. > Pot won by Button (15.66 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Kd Ks (two pair, kings and sixes).
CO shows 8h 8s (two pair, eights and sixes).
Button shows 6d 8d (three of a kind, sixes).
Outcome: Button wins 15.66 BB. 

HAND AKo:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, Button caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

God I can't stand these heads up battles. If it wasn't for that backdoor, I could have let go and saved myself some money.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB
Main Pot: 9.50 BB, between Button and Hero. > Pot won by Button (9.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
Button shows Js As (flush, ace high).
Hero shows Ks Ad (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Button wins 9.50 BB. 

HAND AKs:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO raises, Button folds, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG folds, CO caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero folds.

Screw it. Not repeating the last blind defense. Fit or fold. [censored] like this makes me wonder if I should bother to 3-bet AK on a blind defense. Smooth-calling deception might even get me more action on the big streets if my A or K hit.

Final Pot: 5.16 BB
Main Pot: 4.66 BB, won by CO.
Pot 2: 0.50 BB, returned to CO.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. CO wins 5.16 BB. 

HAND AJs:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, Hero calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Getting your ass handed to you makes you passive.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP3 bets, Hero folds.

... and weak.

Final Pot: 5.66 BB
Main Pot: 4.66 BB, won by MP3.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to MP3.

Results in white below: 
No showdown. MP3 wins 5.66 BB. 

HAND ATs:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (10 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (15 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, Hero folds, SB folds.

I was strangely proud of this laydown, since I so rarely fold TPTK, and so often regret not doing so.

Final Pot: 17 BB
Main Pot: 17 BB, between BB and MP1. > Pot won by BB (17 BB).

Results in white below: 
BB shows 9h 6d (two pair, nines and sixes).
MP1 shows Jc 9d (one pair, nines).
Outcome: BB wins 17 BB. 

HAND QJs:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO folds, Button raises, SB 3-bets, BB folds, Hero folds, Button caps, SB calls.

Good fold right? Don't bother limping in the first place?

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Button raises, SB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Button bets, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Button bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB
Main Pot: 11 BB, between Button and SB. > Pot won by Button (11 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB shows Qs Qc (two pair, queens and jacks).
Button shows Ac Ad (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: Button wins 11 BB. 

With these two following hands, is there anything I could/should have done differently? Check-raise to get draws out, maybe? :

HAND KQo:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO 3-bets, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, BB folds.

Turn: (7.66 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (10.66 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, CO folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.66 BB
Main Pot: 14.66 BB, between Hero and MP3. > Pot won by MP3 (14.66 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Ks Qh (three of a kind, queens).
MP3 shows As 2s (flush, ace high).
Outcome: MP3 wins 14.66 BB. 

HAND KK #2:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, SB calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP2 raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB
Main Pot: 18.50 BB, between MP2, SB and Hero. > Pot won by MP2 (18.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB shows Ks Jh (one pair, jacks).
Hero shows Kd Kh (one pair, kings).
MP2 shows 4c 9c (flush, jack high).
Outcome: MP2 wins 18.50 BB.

southerndog · #2 06-11-2004, 08:48 AM

Looked at a few of your hands. Most people have trouble playing overcards. When do you give up, when do you keep bluffing? I figure, if they called me on the flop, there's a good chance they have something, and go from there.

Have you been a winning player at 3/6 for a while? Just wondering.
The good news is that you had nice hands and were getting beat by lousy hands. In the long run you get their money so long as you don't play horribly on the flop. That guy in the first hand called your raise with 86s. In the long run, you'll get their money.. No worries.

Trix · #3 06-11-2004, 09:16 AM

1) Since you know that you are beat, I asume that you had a read on the Button saying he was loose and very passive and straightforward.
Why call then ?

Without a read, I call down....

2) I would rather check-raise the turn, than call it and call the river. If he 3bet then or call, then I´m check-folding the river.

3) Fine

4) I 3bet preflop. Postflop is fine.

5) Raise preflop. I flatcall the flop as raising only will face SB with a decision. Then I most likely raise the turn, depending on the action.
Call the river, he will have AT,KT often enough. Where you 94% sure that you where beat? I know its frustrating, but you get 17:1, so if you will win just 1/15, then you have a call, but you will loose 14/15 times and feel stupid. Just shrug and move on, that 1/15 will come at some point.

6) I will openraise this hand from MP1. Folding is good after limping and 2 raises.

7) Fine

8) Might have gone for a check-raise on the flop depending on the players behind me.
Could also have gone for it on the turn if I felt frisky.

When you post 8 hands and expect people to take time to comment on them you should take the time your self to add reads or whatever might influence the play.
You played 900 hands, if you dont have any reads on any of these players, then you have something to work on.

ddubois · #4 06-11-2004, 02:54 PM

No reads other than lots of <')))>< as I was running 4 tables at once. Of course, I gain mild reads on some of these people after I see them coldcall 68s, but it's not always clear to me how to integrate that kind of information into my game. I can't envision how I might play KK or AK any differently knowing some any-2-suited player is in the pot. I can respond more to reads of TAG than fish.

I'm surprised you advocate folding #1-KK but calling down #5-ATs. Seems counter-intuitive. I didn't know my KK was beat because I had a read on him being passive. I knew I was beat because the board paired and the turn was raised.

I know I don't open-raise enough. It's really hard for me to justify pushing weak holdings like a AJs/AJo/ATs/QJs pre-flop, when I know so many times the flop will miss me and I'll have to let go; or worse, hit me then get re-drawn when the turn drops a king. Maybe it's a psychological hurdle, but it just feels wrong to raise a QJs. Perhaps I should just fold these kinds of hands if I can't bring myself to open-raise them?

ddubois · #5 06-11-2004, 03:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Looked at a few of your hands. Most people have trouble playing overcards. When do you give up, when do you keep bluffing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, from wat I've read in the shrot-handed forum I get the impression as often as not, that in heads up play AKo unimproved will be the best hand at the end of the fight. I'm not sure about that though - but I see people calling all the way down with ace high alot. Should that be remotely relevant to heads-up blind steal type plays? Maybe not.

Anyway, in normal multiway pots, if given the chance, I will put the first bet almost always, but generally only procede from there if there's some kind of backdoor or gutshot. And if the board shows a flush draw with none of my colors, I look for any reason to pitch ASAP. I don't want to draw to 6 outs, let alone 4. I'm sure I play them weak-tigher than most people here.

[ QUOTE ]
Have you been a winning player at 3/6 for a while? Just wondering.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I was up roughly $700 in roughly 3k hands (missed some sessions with PT), but that's too small of a sample size to say anything. To the extent that I am able to perceive however, the players at 3/6 are as bad as the players at 2/4, so I concluded there wasn't much point in hanging around 2/4 forever.

Trix · #6 06-11-2004, 06:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised you advocate folding #1-KK but calling down #5-ATs. Seems counter-intuitive. I didn't know my KK was beat because I had a read on him being passive. I knew I was beat because the board paired and the turn was raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont, but you said:

" I am wondering if I make crying calls too much... like this one, I know I'm beat:"

And now you say that you knew you were beat again.
If som then its a clear fold. Cant be discussed.
I however, not beeing there would call down as I dont think he is likely to have a 6.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know my KK was beat because I had a read on him being passive. I knew I was beat because the board paired and the turn was raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can fold if you are raised by a weak loose passive player, but against someone aggressive or unknown you must call down.

[ QUOTE ]
I know I don't open-raise enough. It's really hard for me to justify pushing weak holdings like a AJs/AJo/ATs/QJs pre-flop, when I know so many times the flop will miss me and I'll have to let go; or worse, hit me then get re-drawn when the turn drops a king. Maybe it's a psychological hurdle, but it just feels wrong to raise a QJs. Perhaps I should just fold these kinds of hands if I can't bring myself to open-raise them?

[/ QUOTE ]

AJs is a group 2 hand in HFAP, how can that be a weak holding ?
I dont think you shall fold hands in profitable situations just because you dont feel comfortable raising.
Next time you get QJs in MP3 and its folded to you, then raise, you have to learn how to play it postflop somehow.

sthief09 · #7 06-11-2004, 06:58 PM

1: I'm 3-betting the turn. he cold-called your raise.
2: I wouldn't fold the flop with no backdoor draw. just because he caps doesn't mean he has aces or kings. a lot of players will cap headsup just to take control of the hand.
3: same
4: I fold preflop without hesitation
5: I would've probably raised preflop. I cap the flop. I think this is a horrendous laydown on the river.
6: you shouldn't be limping with anythign in this spot preflop. raise or fold. QJs is strong enough to raise here. with a strong drawing hand I'm not laying this down preflop.
7: I think you have enough outs on the flop that giving a free card isn't so bad. I'm definitely check-raising the flop.
8: only one I play the same as you [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

sthief09 · #8 06-11-2004, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, from wat I've read in the shrot-handed forum I get the impression as often as not, that in heads up play AKo unimproved will be the best hand at the end of the fight. I'm not sure about that though - but I see people calling all the way down with ace high alot. Should that be remotely relevant to heads-up blind steal type plays? Maybe not.

[/ QUOTE ]

there's a completely different mentality at 6-max tables. since the table is smaller, there is a lot more raising, which means the average raising hand is a lot weaker. as a result you'll get played back at a lot more by all kinds of assortments of crap. that's why you should call down a lot more. in a full table, that "the raiser is full of [censored]" mentality isn't there as much. I still call down some, but not as much.

ddubois · #9 06-11-2004, 07:52 PM

I wouldn't fold the flop with no backdoor draw. just because he caps doesn't mean he has aces or kings. a lot of players will cap headsup just to take control of the hand

I wasn't putting either player on AA or KK. But I can't put them on a hand worse than ace high either. Even if they are stealing with Ax or Kxs, I have no way of knowing whether or not their rag paired. And the possibiltiy of that they were 'stealing' with a small or medium pocket pair is very real. What am I supposed to do with AK unimproved? I called down in one hand and it cost me a bundle, the next hand I don't, and now it's a mistake. What am I supposed to do? I can't force the showdowns to be in my favor.

JARID · #10 06-11-2004, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No reads other than lots of <')))>< as I was running 4 tables at once. Of course, I gain mild reads on some of these people after I see them coldcall 68s, but it's not always clear to me how to integrate that kind of information into my game. I can't envision how I might play KK or AK any differently knowing some any-2-suited player is in the pot. I can respond more to reads of TAG than fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think having solid reads on people goes a long way in determining whether to call down with AK, or what a turn raise with the board pairing means. Maybe ratchet down the number of tables? I've found that I give up alot in terms of reads when I have a number of tables going at the same time. Of course I am usually trying to work at the same time. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Anyway, you get my point.

-Jarid