Folding too much...regarding an Ed Miller Post

Wada · #1 06-09-2004, 10:31 PM

I read this post - http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...amp;PHPSESSID=

Should I have NOT folded these two hands?

Hand 1
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Wada is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, Wada checks,

Flop: (5 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets, Wada calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Wada folds, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

River: (6.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB shows 9s Ac (two pair, aces and nines).
UTG shows 5h Ad (one pair, aces).
Outcome: SB wins 8.50 BB. 

Hand 2
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Wada is MP3 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Wada raises, CO calls, Button 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Wada calls, CO calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Wada bets, CO calls, Button raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, Wada calls, CO calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, Wada checks, CO checks, Button bets, UTG+1 calls, Wada folds, CO calls.

River: (15.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Button bets, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

Results in white below: 
CO shows Kc Ad (one pair, kings).
Button shows Ks As (one pair, kings).
Outcome: CO wins 8.62 BB. Button wins 8.62 BB.

Bill Smith · #2 06-09-2004, 10:46 PM

Hand 1: You actually should have folded the flop. You need more money in the pot to make this call, especially in the 2nd position.

Hand 2: Button was way overaggressive with this hand. You're safe folding the turn though. You can rest assured you have only two outs. Don't let the fact that the board caught one get to you.

Webster · #3 06-09-2004, 11:30 PM

Hand 1 - yup - fold on the flop - you have nothing going for ya.

Hand 2. I put Button on a hi pair MAYBE be AKs.
Personally I woould have check/called know he would bet but not wanting to be raised (as what happened)
The Turn - I'm out!

As for Millers post - it's a good one - but remember - he is talking about the river (if I remember correctly and he emailed me a few months ago so perhaps I'm merging the two).

Many players will play stronger then they should on the river WITHOUT the best hand. In a nutshell - don't get scared to call 1 bet in a large pot. You MIGHT have the best hand. Sure - a lot of times you won'y but if you pot is $20 all you have to do is be right 1 out of 19 times to have it pay off.

You did good folding - a little late in #1 and that could be a leak. Rule of thumb - you have to have a REAL GOOD REASON to stay in a hand after the flop.

blackaces13 · #4 06-09-2004, 11:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 - yup - fold on the flop - you have nothing going for ya.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying its a clear call but getting 6:1 on a rainbow flop with a gutter ain't exactly nothing.

Ponks · #5 06-09-2004, 11:38 PM

Ed Miller is talking about when the pot is large. In the first hand, the pot is definitely very small and this is a pretty easy fold on the flop here. In the 2nd hand I think I woulda 3-bet the flop, but probably woulda ended up folding on the turn after the king fell. You dont have enough odds to spike one of the other 2 T's, although it is pretty close

Ponks

Ed Miller · #6 06-10-2004, 02:44 AM

I'm not saying its a clear call but getting 6:1 on a rainbow flop with a gutter ain't exactly nothing.

It's a clear fold. The three players yet to act seal the deal.

ScottTheFish · #7 06-10-2004, 09:48 AM

No question I fold had 1 on the flop. Pot is too small, gutshot draw not worth the trouble.

Anyone else 3 bet the flop on Hand 2? I have a tendancy to put a PF 3-better on AK or AQ rather than a high PP until they prove otherwise. With an overpair to the flop I would usually 3 bet it. MANY Micro players will raise the flop with overcards. If he caps then I'll think I'm probably in trouble. Too aggressive?

Joe Tall · #8 06-10-2004, 11:54 AM

These two hands have nothing to do with what Ed was trying to say.

Hand#1 is a clear fold. You're not getting odds to your gut shot and you're not closing the action.

Hand#2
I would 3-bet the flop but it looks as if folding is correct on the turn.

Re-read Ed's post. You are just being results oriented.

Peace,
Joe Tall

SofaCoach · #9 06-10-2004, 05:10 PM

I agree with most on hand one- fold the flop. small pot, bad position, gutshot with possible raise to come behind you.

I disagree with most on hand 2. I would've check-called the turn. Why give the bettor credit for the King? (or big pp). Many would play AQ, AJ, AT, 88, the same way. I'd check-call the turn. I may fold the river if an A comes.