confessions of a marginal (for now) poker player)

[goofball]

i feel like i can't get back on the path to being a winning player.

I started playing seriously last september. riding only my original cash in i moved from the .5/1 to 1/2 to 2/4 to 5/10 where i had trouble so i moved back othe 3/6 for a while. i tried moving up again and moved too quickkly through the 5/10 and 10/20's. I was at the 15/30s for a while but my bankroll was so low there as to be considered foolish. but it's so hard to move back down after moving up. dragging a 50 dollar pot isn't nearly as exciting after you get used to 300 dolalr pots. finally i prudently stepped back down to the 3/6 but i haven't been able to make mysefl win there. i think i'm making way too many loose call downs thinking that everyone at the 3/6 is bluffing all the time. I think i'm trying to steal too many pots thinking they're all weak, when in fact there are soo many calling stations. i think i'm too loose preflop limping with things like KTo, QTo, JTo, 56s and QJo from early position. I think i picked up a couple of bad habits at the 15/30 like getting cute with ym low pocket pairs against 3 overcards, and then wheni get played back at refusing to let go of them. I think my decisions to draw to straights/flushes have been fine since that is a matter of simple mathematics, but less and less i find myself calculating number of outs vs. pot size vs. bet size, thinking maybe taht i can just outplay these poor players at the 3/6.

So far i've really only had this this problem at the online limit holdem tables. in brick and mortar i can summon the discpline to wait for a good hand, or to fold my hand when i know i can't win. when i raise i usually have a very good reason and I feel confident at the real life poker table. THe same goes for the online no limit table. I've been working hard on my NL tourney game and have started reaping the rewards. every SnG i play i expect to cash, every multi i play i expect to last through the second hour at least. I know when i'm playing no limit that one serious fuckup will cost me all my chips, and that it simply won't do to limp with marginal hands. i've learned to be agressive in spots and to know when to release a hand. I dont' want to make the mistake that ends my tournament, so i don't make them. But as my no limit game gets sharp my limit game suffers. Somewhere deep in my subconscious i guess limit holdem is different. i know that serious mistakes only cost 2 bb instead of my whole stack. 2BB at a time on cards that can't win will absolutely cost me my whole stack and more in the long run, but hey, he could be bluffing. I have moments of lucidity to be sure at teh 3/6, but i'm always playing from behind, i see, to just be playing in substandard way.
i need to eliminate the weak limping hands from early and middle position
i need to not get stubborn with things like bottom pair or an underpair
i need to not thinik someone is playing at me every time they raise
i need to not ALWAYS suspect a raise when someone open raises my blind from the button or CO
i need to reexamine skankly's table of hand groups from holdem poker
i need to remember that at most 3/6 games i can wait until i have a hand, drag a big pot, and lather rise repeat
i need to not try to push 3/6 players off their hands
i need to eliminate all mistakes, or as many as possible just like in no limit
i need to carefully examine every hand in which i lose 3 or more big bets
i need to reread theory of poker
i need to imagine myself in a brick and mortar casino as i play online
i need to ignore myself when i want to make stupid things
i need to ignore that damn alien arm or alien finger, or something
I somehow need to relearn how to beat a limit I once beat with one hand tied behind my back. A limit that when i first moved back down seemed sooo easy but now just seems to be helping me hemmorage money.

my brick and mortar game feels sharp, my NL tourney game feels sharp, even my fledgeling 7stud game feels good, but the game that i started with, the game i've won by far the most money with, feels weak, dull.

I don't know what kinds of responses I expect. I needed to discuss in writing the hole's i've felt in my game, the almost feeling of inevitibality when i sit down at a 3/6 lately, the feeling of not remembering what i did to be so good before.

thanks for listening.

[Dan Mezick]

goofball,

this is an interesting post. if you are playing for the income, the game will be boring. not boring in the sense of thinking but in the sense of feeling, in the sense of emotions.

"emotional boredom" when playing is strongly correlated to executing well. you might seek emotional boredom when playing poker, avoiding putting yourself in "emotionally stimulating" situations and see what happens.

consider why you moved your game around so much. what was the actual reason?

Check my essay on the Inner Game and see if it makes sense to you.

...lack of clarity in your beliefs and attitudes about poker is a definite obstacle in your efforts to achieve winning results. To play winning poker you must master yourself. That's going to be difficult if you have a not carefully examined your beliefs about playing the game.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Hi Dan,

I worked as an Options Principal for over 10 years and I still trade "moderately". Part of my position involved training brokers how to trade options. Jack Schwager's books not only had a profound impact on my trading but that comment from Ed Sekoya (everyone gets what they want out of the markets) was the one SINGLE most important thing I EVER read about trading.

I agree 100% with the theory that trading and poker require similar skills and that good traders can become good poker players. I've written on this forum many times about discipline, bankroll management and "drawdowns". I think many people would do better if they could control these 3 things in their poker playing.

LGPG,

Babe [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[Dan Mezick]

Babe,

Thanks for posting, especially with that background you describe.

It is interesting to me, this post of yours.


QUESTIONS:

Al Schoonmaker writes about how some players just dismiss him when he discusses the role of unconscious factors on poker results.

What do you think about that?

What do you think about the idea that the trading environment is so incredibly challenging and demanding that you have to face the inner game issues, or fail?

What do you think about inner game issues in trading being Item#1 and tactical mechanics simply being a set of tasks (a system) to identify, work on and to execute after Item#1 is addressed?

I'm asking trading questions based on your 100% agreement that pokerplayers and traders face nearly identical challenges.

In other words, this thread is not going off-topic by discussing traders.

[Kenshin]

[ QUOTE ]
goofball,

this is an interesting post. if you are playing for the income, the game will be boring. not boring in the sense of thinking but in the sense of feeling, in the sense of emotions.

"emotional boredom" when playing is strongly correlated to executing well. you might seek emotional boredom when playing poker, avoiding putting yourself in "emotionally stimulating" situations and see what happens.

consider why you moved your game around so much. what was the actual reason?

Check my essay on the Inner Game and see if it makes sense to you.

...lack of clarity in your beliefs and attitudes about poker is a definite obstacle in your efforts to achieve winning results. To play winning poker you must master yourself. That's going to be difficult if you have a not carefully examined your beliefs about playing the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you struck upon the root of his problem. A poker player simply cannot maximize his success without emotional detachment. How would you go about achieving this state, dan? Would you drop down limits until the money no longer matters to you? Will it come purely from experience (IE you no longer care about your day to day results after a certain number of swings)? Any advice you can offer on maintaining emotional equilibrium will be helpful both for the original poster and for me.

GL

Kenshin

[stir]

You've done enough analysis to realize where most of your leaks are. Most of them boil down to a real lack of discipline. I suggest you take a month to concentrate totally on discipline at the table whether B&M or online.
Actual session results should be secondary.

After each session ask yourself did I play well...did I meet my "I needs..."?

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Al Schoonmaker writes about how some players just dismiss him when he discusses the role of unconscious factors on poker results.

What do you think about that?

What do you think about the idea that the trading environment is so incredibly challenging and demanding that you have to face the inner game issues, or fail?

What do you think about inner game issues in trading being Item#1 and tactical mechanics simply being a set of tasks (a system) to identify, work on and to execute after Item#1 is addressed?



Hi Dan- I think that preparing to win is key in poker and trading. I believe you must plan a strategy before going to work and review and change that strategy as needed. The best traders, poker players and athletes also use coaches or outside feedback to improve on their game. Corrective feedback from others in addition to your OWN objective analysis is KEY.

I belive that people have motives they are not always aware of which will impact their results. I also belive that some people cannot control their emotions sufficiently to become successful. Ed Sekoya's statement rings true in many endeavors.

As far as the inner game taking priority over the mechanics, I don't think that this is 100% true for all poker players. Some purely technical poker players win and do well overall. They are using only math/mechanics in their play. This is not bad, in and of itself. However, I believe that the people who do this are also disciplined, and unemotional about the game. There are many traders who use trading models and system and never deviate from the numbers. The also do well because they detach from the emotional aspects of trading.

I dont know if that answers all your questions, but overall, I think that the main factors in becoming successfull are solid discipline and solid strategy with a bit of a smile thrown in. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

LGPG,

Babe [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[Al Schoonmaker]

I agree. His original post says that he knows what to do, but doesn't do it. He lacks the discipline to do "boring" things like fold, fold, fold.
A recent thread discussed the personal qualities needed to win. Discipline is certainly one of them, perhaps the most important one.
Regards,
Al

[Dan Mezick]

Play smaller. Play against a 300BB bankroll. Not less.

Serious students of the game will at least experiment with playing a 300BB bankroll for several weeks. You might not have an edge, which is a different problem, and why the link below provides such great advice.


The 30-Bet Rule by Annie Duke

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I started playing seriously last september.

[/ QUOTE ]
0.5/1 to 15/30. Limit and no limit. Ring, SnG, and tournaments. B&M and online. Hold'em and 7-card stud.

I wonder what your problem is ...

You are a beginner. Pick one or two forms of poker and learn to play them very well. Whatever form of the game you choose, respect it and respect yourself by taking the game seriously. Every form of poker has its unique challenges. None of them are easy.

Your problem with 3/6 is well-known among chess players. You don't respect your opponents and you don't respect that their pieces (cards) have the same powers as your pieces. Instead of analyzing carefully to find the best moves (playing sound poker) you are setting cheap tactical traps (foolish bluffs and unjustified calldowns) to take advantage of their weak play.

I suggest that you start posting your 3/6 hands in Small Stakes. *Especially* the hands you win through clever play. I think hearing objective feedback on the hands you thought you played best will do wonders.