A good use of stop-and-go with snowmen?

[M.B.E.]

This is from one of the huge nightly $11+rebuy tourneys on PokerStars. About 70 players left; we are all in the money but not the significant money. Blinds 1500/3000, ante 150. A player with 67K (about average stack size) openraises two off the button to 15000. He's pretty aggressive, but a 5xBB raise is unusual for him. Folded to me in the SB, with 45K left. I have pocket eights. What's my play? (The BB is unlikely to play without a very good hand.)

I called the raise with the intention of moving in on any flop. BB folded. Flop was Js-Th-6h and I moved in for 31K. Results later.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

No, I don't like this play. If you think you've got the best hand, I would say it's better to move in here. If you just call, you won't know where you're at postflop, and the big blind might come in as well. You'd hate to be against AT in the raiser's hand and KQ in the big blind, or any of many other such combinations.

Also, I tend to use the stop-and-go in spots where these criteria are met. First, I'm pretty sure I have the best hand now. Second, if I reraise, there is very little chance the other guy will fold (and I'm not sure that's true here, since you can make a 3x raise of his raise). Of course, you have to have first action postflop. Finally, even though I can't raise enough to get him out preflop, I can bet enough on the flop that he will likely fold if he misses, even if he misses holding two overcards.

In your case, if you're ahead, he easily might fold preflop. And I'm not so sure you're ahead here either.

Also, to fold here and give up T1500 is not a big dent in your stack. I tend to go for the stop-and-go when I'm the big blind for like 10-15% of my stack, and the raise is to 30-50% of my stack. A reraise by me often won't win preflop with these numbers, but the flop bet will win at least much of the time.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Ian]

I sure hope you're not planning to publish a book with this sort of advice. As you well know, the luck factor already makes it tough enough to win tournies. If we get a lot more players thinking at this level, it could be quite a long time before I get to join you as a World Champion!

[MVicuna]

Hi,

Didn't you stop and think his larger then normal opening raise could mean something? Had the blinds just gone up and this was his new raise? Was there a exceptionally big or short stack in the Blinds?

I usually read a limp or Extra Aggression from an Aggresive player to be a big hand and fold my hands accordingly.

He had QQ or better?

MarkV.

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't you stop and think his larger then normal opening raise could mean something?

[/ QUOTE ]
I read it as signifying that he did not really want callers, but at the same time he had a hand he was prepared to commit to, maybe AK or AQ, maybe TT or 99. However, I'm not really sure of this. What does it usually mean when a player who raises a lot preflop suddenly makes a larger raise? I'd really like to know -- but I usually fold in that situation so I never find out.

It seems pretty unlikely that he had AA, KK, or QQ -- if he did, then surely he would have just made his normal preflop raise so as not to arouse suspicions.

In the result, after I moved in on the flop my opponent thought a little while and folded. So I don't know what he held.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

[ QUOTE ]
It seems pretty unlikely that he had AA, KK, or QQ -- if he did, then surely he would have just made his normal preflop raise so as not to arouse suspicions.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends if they think at that level. The fact he made a larger then normal raise is an indication he doesn't think at that level. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I almost wish I hadn't read this thread now. Him folding is going to make me 2nd guess my read on a larger then normal raise from an agressive player.

I have seen them show down AA/KK a lot when this happens, thats where I get this impression.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[La Brujita]

I hate to ask this question for fear of sounding stupid but I understand stop and go to be a flat call with the intention of moving in on any flop.

Shouldn't it matter on some level whether the flop comes coordinated like J-T-5 with two hearts vs a flop with total rags?

If that the case is it really a stop and go or a modified stop and go. In other words I am talking about a move of stop and sort of go or something to that effect.

I guess what I am saying is if your read is that your opponent likely has an ace you don't still move in on an ace high flop do you?

Regards

[Jason Strasser]

Hey LaBrujita,

The key to a stop and go is that you push regardless. It is an alternative to going over the top--with extra equity gained from your opponent folding. If you call with the intentions of folding to overcard(s), that is -EV for sure, especially with a hand like 88--that doesnt like many flops.

If an ace flops, you still push. Many players will hate to see an ace, (KQ, JJ, blah blah). You can not call to see a flop in this spot. You must fold preflop, or commit to the stop and go, or push preflop.

A "modified" stop and go is a losing proposition.