Angeloian River Fold

[SoBeDude]

Bellagio 30-60.

My first night of playing this high, and I felt quite comfortable. I had no difficulty picking out the fish and the pros, and felt I was +EV in the game.

I'm in the BB with QJo, a Doctor who is BAD limps in EP, 3 others limp as well, and I rap the table. 5 to see the flop for one bet. Is this 3/6 or 30/60?

Flop is JJ7, don't remember the suits. I bet out, the Doc calls, a raise from MP and folded to me, I 3bet. The doc starts dropping chips in the middle then says "um I raise". This is disallowed as a string bet so he just calls as does MP.

Doc has a Jack.

Turn is some middle blank, I check, Doc bets, MP calls, I raise, Doc reraises, MP folds, I 4bet. Doc just calls.

Now I've been playing with Doc a while now. and I know when he just called here he's beat. I know I'm ahead.

River is a 9. I bet out and Doc raises me.

I look at him and KNOW I'm beat. Its not an odds thing, its not a probability thing. I'm beat.

I turn over my QJo and tap the table saying nice hand. He graciously turns over J9o for the rivered full house.

Sixty bucks buys several fruit plates, even at the Bellagio.

-Scott

[Rushmore]

I notice you check raised the turn after you had already determined the doctor had a jack.

Seeing as he had limped preflop from early position, I gather you were very confident that he wasn't holding KJ (which is exactly the hand I would most fear from him).

So you must have put him on J9 or JT (I have to assume J8 is not in the equation).

The nine hits the river.

You bet, knowing that you'll fold to raises (J9 in this case) and get paid by the other combination (JT in this case).

Do you feel that he will not bet the hand that does not fill?

That seems unlikely, if he played these rags from up front in the first place.

Therefore, why not guarantee yourself a showdown and check, rather than aspiring (as so many clearly do) to Angeloan heroicism?

Seems you can't lose anything, and you can definitely see his cards this way.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I turn over my QJo and tap the table saying nice hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The faceup big laydown. Weak.

[Gremlin]

[mike l.]

"I have to assume J8 is not in the equation"

why on earth would you assume that? hero already told us that the doctor is "BAD".

[PassiveCaller]

Actually Mike L is probably right since he's so bad we can't rule out J8.. but it comes down to knowing the player alittle and there's quite a few players that will give you that uh oh call with trips there on the turn and they won't reraise your river bet without a full house....

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I turn over my QJo and tap the table saying nice hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The faceup big laydown. Weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

True.

I felt if I turned them up and layed them down, he'd respond in kind and show his hand.

I KNEW I was beat and I had no doubt about my laydown. But deep down inside, some little part of me wanted or needed to see it. Eventually that will go away too. At the very least it confirmed my read on the Doc.

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

Its not about getting to a showdown cheaply. I need to value bet my strong hands on the river. That does of course mean some times I'm not going to win, but the extra bets I collect more than make up for the few extra I lose when I'm behind.

He might have had KJ. But I was sure he had a jack. When he didn't keep reraising the turn, I really felt I was ahead. And certainly I'm ahead of most of the hands I think he'd play that way here, but not all. So I need to keep on the heat and bet the river.

But when he then raises me on the river, in spite of the previous strength I've shown, I've lost. This is an unimaginative, passive, and loose player. There is no way he's just going to raise me here with trips, even if his kicker is better. he'd only raise here with a BIG hand, a full house. Nothing less would give him the confidence to raise me again.

And if I had check-called the river as you suggested, I still would have lost, and lost the same amount. Yet when I'm ahead and check he might not bet and check behind, costing me a bet. So over the long run I lose the same but make less when I'm ahead. yuk.

-Scott

[Tommy Angelo]

"Sixty bucks buys several fruit plates, even at the Bellagio."

:-)

"I look at him and KNOW I'm beat. Its not an odds thing, its not a probability thing. I'm beat."

Strong.

I've got two distinct ways of looking back and evaluating the score of a poker hand I played. There's theoretical results. And there's what happened. I really like the theory and the thinking it through part. Always have, always will.

But I tend to do that in the car or here. At the table, after a hand that goes to the showdown, and I get to see my opponent's hand, the way I figure it, win or lose, is: When did the money go in? That's it.

I look at the cards, like let's say I have AK and I check-behind headsup on the turn with a board of A-7-4-3, a horrible play probably, but let's say that on the river the other guy bets, and I call, and he turns over 6-5 for a turned straight. The way I would score this hand is very high for me, because of what actually happened, no matter how bad (by my reckoning or any other) my check on the turn was.

SoBeDude, with the QJ, you put in the maximum amount on the flop and turn with the best hand, and the minimum (imaginable) amount on the river. By table reckoning, it sounds like a perfectly played hand to me.

(Except for this part: "I turn over my QJo." GACK!)

In the car, it matters what poker thoughts I think about, on the to way to poker, and the way home. It matters what new plans I make, what new lessons I learn. It matters, when I think I should bet, how I think I should behave.

But that's practice. Like on piano at home. It's private. And there's no pay or pain. Playing piano at home, and playing poker at a word-processor, is all jolly good, but it sure ain't performance. During the show, and likewise on the turn and river, it's not a time for me to be thinking, because all that counts in the end is the sound produced at each instant, and there is not enough time between notes to do anything but play.


Tommy

[Clarkmeister]

Good post. There aren't many people that can stop themselves from betting trips headsup on the river with a non-flush board when their opponent checks. Since we are certain he has trips, your argument has a lot of merit.