In TPFAP...?

[Sundevils21]

In Tournament Poker for Advanced Players by D.S., he devotes a chapter to playing AK. He recomends(in certain situations) moving all in with AK preflop, especially when the blinds are high compared to your stack, and when picking up the blinds could be of great value. Of course this is situational, but can a generalization be made from it? Can this generalization be made, "Do it only against thinking players and not against those who aren't"? AK all in preflop is KILLING me. I'm repeatedly shown 22-99, QJ, Q10... Don't get me wrong, when I move in with AK and am called by Q10offsuit, I know I'm the favorite, but I don't want to risk my entire stack multiple times with only a slight edge(or disadvantage aginst 22..). (I haven't read the chapter recently, so correct me if he already says this, or completly disagrees with it)

[laceratedsky]

My theory is, if you don't take advantage of situations where you are slightly ahead, you aren't going to get very far. You have to come out on top in these coin flip situtations in order to win a tournament IMO.

laceratedsky

[Edge34]

I just read this chapter pretty recently, and while I don't have it in front of me right now, here's the basic rundown of this concept...

1) By moving in when the blinds are large in relation to your stack size, you remove all further need to play the hand post-flop, in many cases you'd need to lay it down.

2) AK is almost never in deep trouble, except against AA or KK, and the probability of either of those hands being dealt is cut in half due to your holding one of each.

So really, there's no distinction made between "thinking" players and "lesser thinking" players. This is a move that is made to get your money in when your stack might be a little thin compared to the blinds, to remove any need for YOU to "think" after the flop. If you had more room in your stack to play with after a flop, that is probably the line you'd most often take. Hope this sorta answers your question...

-Edge

[Sundevils21]

[ QUOTE ]
My theory is, if you don't take advantage of situations where you are slightly ahead, you aren't going to get very far. You have to come out on top in these coin flip situtations in order to win a tournament IMO.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please note that I am an underdog to 22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99,1010,jj,qq,kk,aa.
I think you need to read TPFAP by Sklansky, it teaches that if you think you are a better player than most in the tournament, you DON'T want to risk your entire stack on a coin flip. You can wait until you have a bigger advantage and use the advantage of being a better player. However, late in a tournament sometimes you're forced to take a coin flip situation, but you can definatly get far in a tourny without taking advantage of coin flip situations IMO.
BTW, I'm not talking entirely about "winning" the tournament.
Am I thinking correctly?

[Tosh]

AK is the most situational hand there is IMO. Sometimes I stick it all in, sometimes I fold, there are a lot of factors here. The avoiding coinflip argument is sometimes valid but later in the tournament you normally have no choice because of the high blinds.

[West]

Well, remember that with AK vs. QJ or QT, you're actually almost a 2-1 favorite, a situation you will take most any time. And the same players who are going to call you with 22 are also going to call you with ace dominated, which is what you really are hoping for. And if the blinds are any kind of big relative to your stack, then if you get in a coin flip, so be it - what else are you going to do with AK?

[woodguy]

The main reason he teaches to push PF when your stack is small in relation to the blind is because AK plays best when seeing all 5 cards. Often you pair on 4th or 5th street when the flop is junk. If you just see the flop you would have to lay down.
But, this advice is generally limited to when your stack is starting to feel the pain of high blinds.
regards,
woodguy

[jwvdcw]

I agree that is sucks to play a tourney for a few hours, make the final 100 or so, push all in with A-K, and then get called by crap like 7-7.

Sure they're favored, but how could they call that?

Its frusterating, and I understand your pain. However, you have to realize that those same players that call with 7-7 will call with A-Q and maybe even A-J or K-Q if they are really that bad. You will rarely if ever be called by a hand that dominates yours(AA or KK are very rare obviously when you hold AK), you'll occassionally be called by hands that you dominate, you'll occiasionally go against hands that you are slightly less than 50-50, and most of the time you'll simply steal the blinds. Thats not a bad gamble imo, and one that you have to take when you have A-K and the blinds are significant. You can't afford to fold it obviously since you need to steal some blinds every round in order to not fall behing. You can't limp because you are then in trouble if an ace of king doesn't fall. And you can't make a small raise because anyone that would call all in with 7-7 will most certainly just raise you there and then you also run the risk that a big stack is now more inclined to call you with a gambling hand like 10-Js.

Overall, I'd say it breaks down like this(very rough estimates here on my part):

76%-you win the blinds
1%-you get called by AA or KK and lose
1%-you get called by A-Q or a similar hand and you lose
6%-you get called by A-Q or similar hand and you win
8.5%-you get called by a pocket pair and you lose
7.5%-you get called by a pocket pair and you win

So 76%, you take the blinds
13.5% you double up
10.5% you are out of the tournament

I think thats a gamble that you have to take.



Now obviously a lot depends upon your opponents. Personally, every time I see a player who is risking his whole tourney on calling 50-50 shots, I make a note of that. You'll run into the same people over and over again if you play many tourneys each week. Know who your opponents are and judge accordingly.

For example, lets say that I know there are 2 people behind me who are complete maniacs and will go all in on any pocket pair. Lets say I have 2000 chips with blinds at 100-200. Imo, this means that I don't have to push all in. I can raise to 600, and then lay down A-K if one of them re raises all in, even though its tempting to call the moron to bust him out.

Now in the same situation with a tight table, I push all in.

So there are 3 factors at work here: 1.Your stack, 2.The blinds, and 3.Your opponents play. Most people won't consider #3, yet it is very important imo. Folding A-K is a move that only a good player can make, but it is necessary to do so in some situations imo if you know that a particular opponenet will overplay middle pocket pairs often.