Is this CR a good idea?

Blindfolk · #1 05-26-2004, 12:23 AM

This is the second hand at the table, so no reads. Thanks for any comments.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players) 
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, Button calls, SB calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Button folds, SB calls.

Here, I CR to get a free card on the river if I don't get one of my draws on the turn. Good idea without any reads?

Turn: (7 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players) 
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players) 
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB
Main Pot: 14 BB, between SB, Hero and MP1. > Pot won by Hero (14 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB shows 9d 3h (two pair, nines and threes).
Hero shows 8d Qd (straight, queen high).
MP1 shows Qs Tc (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 14 BB.

blackaces13 · #2 05-26-2004, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Here, I CR to get a free card on the river if I don't get one of my draws on the turn. Good idea without any reads?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You can't expect a free card from the BB. Try this move on the button or in LP when you're the last to act or have a good chance of buying the button. The move is also better with OESD's than gutters.

Blindfolk · #3 05-26-2004, 12:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]

No. You can't get free cards from the BB. Try this move on the button next time, it works a lot better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate on this?

This is my line of thinking:

I check on the flop, it gets bet at. I raise when it gets to me. If I don't hit my draw on the turn, I can check and the bettor on the flop might check it for fear of another CR, which would allow me to get a free card on the river.

blackaces13 · #4 05-26-2004, 12:40 AM

I just edited my reply as you were writting your response because I thought I came off like a dick [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]. I included a little more explanation in my edit.

Basically, a lot of people raise draws and a lot of people are wary of giving free cards. Being that this is the case a CR on the flop followed by a check on the turn when a blank hits will usually be treated as weakness by players who are semi-aware. Expect to be bet into again by a pair or better if you check the turn.

But if you pull this move on the button you could just as easily have a set as a draw so the EP players will be much more careful before betting into you again. So if its checked to you and you're last to act then obviously you can check and by the time they realize you were rasing a draw its too late. The free (1/2 off) card is yours.

I think it should be noted that in micro play you are raising draws for value much more often than for free cards. However, you generally don't raise gutters for either IMO.

GoblinMason (Craig) · #5 05-26-2004, 12:49 AM

I definitely would've been out when you got bet at on the flop. You don't know if those behind you are going to call you to make your odds right even if you do get a free card on the turn (which most people pointed out you probably wouldn't). The odds of you making your straight by the river are about 5:1, which doesn't take into account someone making thier flush (which it looks like UTG might have been drawing to) and odds which you wouldn't have gotten if the people behind you didn't call. I think laying this down on the flop is right. Is my thinking right on this?

cold_cash · #6 05-26-2004, 12:51 AM

I like this line a whole lot better with position and overcards.

The chances of the free-card play working from the blinds is too small, especially against unaware opponents.

Shalara · #7 05-26-2004, 02:02 AM

Interesting hand.

I would have folded the flop. I could be mistaken, but I *think* a gutshot+runner-runner flush is 8:1. The check-raise might be okay in end position, but what do you do when you miss your draw completely and you're practically first to act?

Turn good, river good.

Nemesis · #8 05-26-2004, 03:26 AM

Just a thought, but don't you GIVE a free card when you're in early posistion, and TAKE a free card when you're last to act. In early posistion you have no control whether the card gets there or not, in last posistion you get to choose check/bet and therefore TAKE or don't take the free card.

flexus · #9 05-26-2004, 05:39 AM

This is not a good play in my opinion. You will almost never succed in getting a freecard by check raising from an early position. The freecard raise should only be done in late (preferably last) position. Even If you were in late position, I would not reccomend making that play with such a weak draw. You would have too be very sure you are going to get a free card on the next street, because if the next card does not help you, you prolly can't call a bet.

I would check call the flop. (perhaps even check fold because of the two spades out there, plus you are not drawing to the nut straight). If the turn doesn't help you, you prolly have to muck the hand.

best regards
/flexus

flexus · #10 05-26-2004, 05:41 AM

you are absolutely right about that