My first limit O/8 post... dump this or pray?

[MrBlini]

Party Poker 1/2 Omaha/8 (10 handed)

Good table - six to eight see most flops.

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players) </font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players) </font> Yuck!
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG (loose passive) bets</font>,
<font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero folds

Correct? It pained me to throw away such a pretty looking hand, but I thought I had little chance of taking even half the pot here. Results to follow.

[tiltboy]

I think you did the right thing. A loose passive player suddenly waking up and betting the turn indicates to me a nut low is made and although MP1 could be rasing a pair of overcards I more likely put him/her on a higher set, meaning you may be drawing to 1 out for half the pot.

Just my $.02.

[crockpot]

i fold here. besidse A23x or a remote hand like A37J, what do you put MP1 on? his betting strongly indicates a higher set. even if you are currently ahead, a lot of river cards can beat you, and you are only playing for half the pot.

as an aside, this is a marginal hand to be raising with preflop. i prefer a call, although it's close if know the blinds are going to play. make the hand marginally better by changing one of the twos to a six, or making the ace a heart, and a raise is better.

[chaos]

I would not raise preflop with this hand. It is basically a one-way hand. You have A2 for low with no real counterfeit protection. You are unlikely to win high with either an 8-high flush or a set of 2's.

I agree with your laydown.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Correct? It pained me to throw away such a pretty looking hand, but I thought I had little chance of taking even half the pot here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. Blini - I don't know. I'd call.

Hard to say what odds you're getting, but if nobody raises any more, and everyone just calls, you're getting almost 4 to 1 pot odds (for the high half of the pot) to look at one more card.

Hard to put anyone on a hand. Maybe UTG has A34X. Maybe MP1 is trying to limit the field with two pair and a busted low. There are some other possibilities. Hard to say. Hard to say about the others too. Your set of deuces may be the high hand at this point. Of course you'd like to see the case deuce show up on the river - but maybe non-diamond aces, kings, and queens, a total of ten cards, would leave you with the winning high hand. The odds against one of these appearing on the river are 3.4 to 1, lower than the half-pot odds you might be getting. (Obviously you're drawing dead if you're up against another set. But although this is a distinct possibility, I would bet you are not up against another set - and if you call here, that's exactly what you're betting on - that and catching a river card that doesn't enable a flush or better).

There's still another bet to come on the river, and the current betting round isn't finished, but a passive UTG probably doesn't jam here - and if you don't get one of those ten cards I think you have an easy fold on the river.

Hard to say. Everybody else who has posted a response seems to favor folding. I can't really argue with that. But I'd call to look at one more card, hoping for a deuce, or non-diamond ace, king, or queen.

I don't like your starting hand much. You basically have two good cards, and they are only good for the low half the pot. Your pair of deuces is more of a liability than an asset, except that it does give you some counterfeit and quartering insurance - insurance that didn't pay off here. I don't think your hand is pretty at all. I certainly would not have raised, pre-flop, with it.

But since you did, this is going to be a big pot.

And I'd like to see one more card.

If you're going to play a starting hand with a pair of deuces as one of the features, then play it when you catch a deuce. Otherwise play it as though you don't like the hand much. (Without your pre-flop raise it's an easy fold here).

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[MrBlini]

... SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (14.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 16.50 BB, between MP1 and UTG.</font> &gt; High won by MP1 (16.50 BB) No low.

Results:
UTG shows 6s 7h Td 6c (High: three of a kind, sixes).
MP1 shows Js Kd 8d Jd (High: three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: MP1 wins 16.50 BB.

Thoughts: I shouldn't have raised preflop. I'd certainly do so with a marginal hand in hold'em, and here I had a hand that was better than many of my opponents' average starting hands, but in O/8 I should have seen the flop cheaply, then charged my opponents to stay in if it was favorable.

The loose passive's bet into the turn was the big warning sign for me. With MP1's raise, I felt there was a very good chance that I was beat both high and low at this point. I was fairly certain that the set of deuces was not good.

There is no way could I have known that my made junk low here was actually going to be good on the river.

One of these days, I'm going to learn how to play O/8 well. For now, though, you all have got the aquarium to yourselves.

--b

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Results:
UTG shows 6s 7h Td 6c (High: three of a kind, sixes).
MP1 shows Js Kd 8d Jd (High: three of a kind, jacks).

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. Blini - Very interesting. You make a pre-flop raise, get five callers, and two of them have the hands shown above.

A primary skill in any poker game is reading your opponents. In Texas hold 'em, this skill often involves putting your opponents on cards they don't have (and fear you do). In Omaha or Omaha-8, this skill involves putting opponents on cards they do have.

I don't know what to say. I wouldn't play either one of those hands without the pre-flop raise, (except from the unraised big blind). Of course UTG and MP1 probably think they're trapped into calling the raise because they've already paid one small bet to see the flop. They might not play those hands if they expected a raise behind them - but they really should know better when playing trash. They evidently don't think it is trash, or they simply can't tell the difference. Whatever.

Well... as it turns out, since one of your opponents (indeed, both of them!) flopped sets, but not straight draws or low draws on a flop of 6-7-J, the ten non-board-pairing, non-board-flushing and non-board straighting outs I thought you might have on the turn are a figment of my imagination!

I think you have to largely forget about hand reading against these guys! One of them is playing bottom set with a rainbow hand from under the gun after a flop of 6-7-J! The other one called from mid-position with a pair of jacks and a second-nut diamond flush draw that is reduced 28% (or whatever) in value because of the third diamond in his hand!

Well... you just have to adapt to the game. In a game like this where it's simply impossible to read your opponents because they exercise such poor judgement in hand selection, I think you have to largely give up on trying to read them. All you can do, I think, is tighten up your own game, especially after the flop, and wait until you have the nuts (or favorable odds) to apply the pressure.

[ QUOTE ]
One of these days, I'm going to learn how to play O/8 well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to join the highest-limit Omaha-8 game offered in the low-limit section at Hollywood Park casino late, after eleven p.m. and wait until the games in the high limit section broke and some of the excellent pros from those games had no better prospects than to while away the early morning hours playing in my game. I knew I'd generally take a beating - and I did - but I thought the lessons were worth the cost. Those players were hard to put on hands too, but there was some logic to their play, and I learned from them.

I'm not suggesting that to anyone, because it's an expensive way to learn (albeit probably cheaper than stepping up in limits). But my goal was to achieve excellence. (I'm still working on it!) I thought (and think) playing against tougher opponents was (and is) the way to do it.

Reading books helps me too. Re-reading Zee is especially good. Interchanges on this forum also help.

In a way, your results on the hand you posted are frustrating to me, but in another way that's part of the reality of playing with poor opponents - and you have to deal with it. It's certainly more profitable than playing with pros.

[ QUOTE ]
For now, though, you all have got the aquarium to yourselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope that doesn't mean you're giving up playing Omaha-8 - just when you're starting to get the hang of it.

Buzz

[MrBlini]

No, I'm not giving it up, especially if I get to play against lineups like this. I plan on visiting this aquarium from time to time, but not on becoming a denizen just yet.

UTG in this hand would most likely have called my raise cold had I acted before him, so reading his hand is out of the question. At this table, I was pretty much reduced to playing my cards and betting and raising for value.

[iblucky4u2]

There is a good lesson here about playing against the clueless players found at low limit O/8. Buzz mentioned that you should have called when the 2 hit on the turn, thinking that your set might be good. IT MIGHT! Then there is the possiblity that your trash low could win half the pot. It cost you 2 BB to win 9.25 BB if either hand is good. That means to call 2 more BB you only need to win 1 out of 4 times to be right. That's not counting the times when your trash will actually scoop [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Don't give up - there are lots of good opportunities to collect from low limit O/8 - just by playing tight pre-flop and solid post flop.

[chaos]

Playing solid post flow, to me means, holding or drawing to the nuts. A bottom set of 2's and an A8 for low are pretty far from the nuts in both directions. That is why I recommend laying it down on the turn.