Pocket Pair Question: Raise or Call?

[dennischambers]

This is a general limit question that could apply to any limit, but mostly at low limits where the players are, for the most part, complete idiots.
2 hypotheticals:
1)Say I am sitting in a rather loose game and I pick up pocket fours in first position. While, in a very tight agressive game, some would advocate throwing this away, I feel like, given the feel of the game, it's worth a play due to the other players' low starting requirements. Therefore, since I am surely playing the hand, would it be more profitable to just call or to raise, assuming that a raise would knock out at most 1 opponent? Do I want to get my money in preflop with a hand that I assume is beating most of my opponents? A mathematical or merely a theoretical explanation would be appreciated.
2) The same question except with a higher pocket pair, such as 10s or jacks. Would this affect the situation at all?
Thanks, Andrew

[Joe Tall]

Tens, Jack, raise.

44, call and flop a set.

Burn Phil's book.

Welcome to forum,
Joe Tall

[joker122]

This is a pretty simple concept that almost any poster here has a firm grasp of, but since no one replied I'll try to explain it.

With the small pocket pairs you are better off just calling. In fact, you want the whole table coming along for the ride with a hand like 44. This is because when you flop 3 of a kind, which will happen only once in about 8 flops, you want to get paid off. The way you get paid off is by having multiple players calling your bets while most of them are drawing dead. Small pocket pairs very rarely hold up unimproved, especially in a type of game that you describe. Thus, for them to be worth playing you want alot of players in the pot with you so you can get paid off big when you hit a set. The way to invite players in the pot is to simply call preflop.

With TT and higher you can often win the pot without improving, but the more players you have in the pot with you the less the chance of taking it down unimproved. Therefore, you should typically be raising these hands from all positions to try to narrow the opposition.

[dennischambers]

I'm not trying to be rude, but I think I understand the concepts that joker122 described. I know that I want lots of players in a pot with a pocket pair so I can try to flop a set. But, what I'm asking is, do I want to get as much money in preflop as possible when drawing to a set, knowing that literally every player will call a preflop raise? My thinking is that if there is more money in preflop, players will stay in on the flop because of the pot odds they're getting. Therefore, I would get payed off more often when I do flop a set. The only potential problem I see is people staying with flush and straight draws and making better hands than me. Now that i've clarified, any comments?
PS thanks for welcoming me to the forum; I don't mean to offend anyone with this post, and I plan on being a respectful and courteous poster.

[aas]

Hi Dennis,

I guess you are more concernd about the 44 hand. If we don't consider implied odds, theoretically if you are absolutely sure that 8 players will come along with you regardless of the raises and reraises that could come on your left, yes, you should put as much money as possible in the pot before the flop. This is profitable to you since the odds of flopping your set is 1:7.5. Now because small sets are hidden, they have high implied odds. I don't know the exact math, but I wouldn't mind seeing the flop if five other players are willing to call my cap before the flop. In this case my answer would be yes. Put in as much chips as you can before the flop.

Good luck,
aas.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
With TT and higher you can often win the pot without improving, but the more players you have in the pot with you the less the chance of taking it down unimproved. Therefore, you should typically be raising these hands from all positions to try to narrow the opposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

With AA/KK/QQ I don't really want the field narrowed since they win so much more than their fair share. Just to make sure, I checked my PokerTracker stats and I'm winning only slightly smaller percent of hands with JJ than QQ. I know the common wisdom is that you want to narrow the field with JJ, but at 57% winning with QQ and 53% with JJ the difference seems slight enough where I'm now questioning that belief. Does anyone have an stronger opinion?

[dennischambers]

Thanks alot aas, that's what I was looking for. I play in a lot of smaller limit games in which almost everyone is a maniac, and I was just wondering whether, from an EV standpoint, it would be better to get your money in preflop or after making a set. This helps me immensely. Thanks again, Andrew

[tech]

Here are my winning percentages:

AA -- 68.75%
KK -- 61.11% (probably should be higher, but had some tough luck with it)
QQ -- 60.47%
JJ -- 58.06%
TT -- 58.06% (yes, exact same as JJ)

Auto-raise [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[TBone]

Let's do the math bro.

You flop a set one in 8 times right? So, if you raise every time you get a low pocket pair, (assuming it doesn't stand up and if you're getting as many callers as you say, they won't) you wind up losing 14 small bets total. (assuming you don't flop a str8 draw and stick around) If you raise, you wind up making 2x the amount of callers. Typically you're not going to have 7 people calling your raise, so in essence I would say no it's not profitable to raise those.

T

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I know the common wisdom is that you want to narrow the field with JJ, but at 57% winning with QQ and 53% with JJ the difference seems slight enough where I'm now questioning that belief. Does anyone have an stronger opinion?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not completely sure what you're saying here, but I think it's along the lines of "JJ and QQ win more than half the time, therefore I want callers."

The problem with this contention is that QQ and JJ, which have won 57% and 53% respectively for you, have been played in a fasion in which you were trying to limit the feild (I'm assuming you raise them preflop). If you told me that these hands held up 57% and 53% while just calling then yes, just calling would be the correct play. But you have to consider the fact that they have these favorable win percentages partly because you play them such that you attempt to narrow the opposition. Are we on the same track, or am I misunderstanding you?