KK Hand

[Huskiez]

I played some Pokerstars $1 BB yesterday, came across this KK hand and was wondering how you guys would play it. I mentioned in this thread how one disadvantage for me of being a big stack is it is difficult to play overpairs on the flop. That will come into play on this hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) converter

MP2 ($98)
CO ($37.90)
Button ($38.50)
SB ($91.20)
BB ($35.65)
UTG ($33.35)
Hero ($104.40)
MP1 ($92)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $1.
UTG (poster) checks, Hero raises to $4, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls $3.50, BB folds, UTG folds.

<font color="green">I'd been raising continually to $4 preflop on this table with many hands, so I figured I'd get some callers, but only one came. I had these stats on SB:

Hands: 74 - VP$IP: 31 - PFR: 5 - WentSD: 30 - WonSD: 57 - AF: 0.4 - Won: $12 - W$SF: 39</font>

Flop: (Pot is around $10) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
SB bets $5, Hero raises to $15, SB raises to $30.

Your move (and why)?

[TheFink]

Interesting hand. The way the SB plays it on the flop I'd consider it unlikely that they have either the flush draw or a made full. There's a fair likelihood that they have an overpair to the flop - if that's the case then unless they have AA you're ahead. They could also have some sort of monster draw like 7h 5h.

I suppose they could just have the 4, though I think they're overplaying it slightly if they do. But in a way they're contradicting themselves if they do - they're protecting the hand on the flop like a tighter player, yet calling preflop with a hand with a 4 in it, doesn't really make sense. Particularly as you say you've been raising enough that they couldn't put you necessarily on a big hand.

There's probably a case for calling to see what they do on the turn, depending on the type of player you think they are. But the percentage move is surely the all-in straight away... if they have a 4 or better you're unlucky, if they don't you're ahead. Though I suppose if you feel you'll make money off these players without tangling further in this pot then it may be a very astute fold. I'd go all-in personally...

[Scottnyce]

That screams over pair. Maybe AK hearts.

I'd call and see what the turn brings....Bet out the pot if nothing terrible (A or heart comes).

[Huskiez]

Thanks for the replies.

I personally thought for sure he had an overpair, but lower than my kings, and thought I was a lock to win this. Only possible hands that could beat me were 66 and 44 in my opinion. I figured my image would be that of a LAG hopefully, and that he would put me on high cards. Therefore, I pushed. He called. Turn was 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and river T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and he flipped over the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for the flopped trips.

I'm not sure if I could have gotten away from this hand, as there were many hands that I am definitely ahead of. The question is, am I putting myself in a position where only a better hand will call me. I guess not, as many draws would call, but on Pokerstars would they play back at me without a monster?

I like how my opponent played his hand. I guess he figured if he caught the flop right, he could take me for all my money with those huge implied odds. And he did just that.

Biggest pot I've ever lost. Just hope it doesn't happen too often.

[muzungu]

Huskiez-

So I made the mistake of glancing at the results before typing this, but his betting sequence really does scream monster to me. With a heart draw or an overpair, I'd expect maybe bet-raise-call (esp. a loose player with a heart draw, looking to see more cards), check-bet-call (either), or check-bet-raise (checkraising with the small overpair, to see whether you have a bigger pair or big cards), but certainly not bet, raise, reraise.

Let's play the "what does each bet say?" game.

His bet: I have something. You should fold your AK now.

Your raise: I'm not afraid of your A6/overpair/heart draw. I have a big overpair.

His reraise: I'm not afraid of your big overpair. I have (?).

So, yeah, the flop seems pretty innocuous, but I'd be worried here. Not sure if I'd be able to get away from it, tho.

-muz

[george w of poker]

or, it could be...

his bet: "you missed the flop, this is my pot"

hero's bet: "no i didn't. back off"

his bet: "you can't fool me, i know you missed it"


but thats pretty rare in my opinion considering the min reraise.

[cornell2005]

unless hes a horrible player, he cant have anythintg but a 4 or another monster.

he knows you have high pockets, and he still min raises you anyways. everything about this hand preflop, flop, and previous stats points towards your beat

if he had qq,jj, 1010 and for reason thought that was good vs you he woulda raised preflop and not post flop after you already raised. if he had flush draw he woulda pushed instead of raising if for some odd reason he wanted to get all his money in. if he had overcards he would bet pot or just check call.

his stats are just loose enough to warrent a possibility of him having a 4. or, theres always a chance he had small pockets and flopped the boat.

this hand comes down to if you think hes a horrible player or not. if hes real bad he will be holding an overpair here enough of the time, but i doubht he can be that bad. i would fold unless i have extreme reason to believe hes a very dumb player, as his betting pattern is horrible for any hand besides one that can beat yours.

[Huskiez]

[ QUOTE ]
Your raise: I'm not afraid of your A6/overpair/heart draw. I have a big overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's where I messed up. Looking over this hand, I think I should have pot-raised it to 25. That way I am sure he got the message and if he is still raising, I can fold confidently. At the time I think my raise conveyed more so "You don't have anything. I'm just gonna push you around." His reraise definitely should have (and slightly did) send out warning signals, but at the time I felt like it was "I do have something. An overpair." I think I raised it to 15 because I wanted to induce a reraise from an overpair, as I probably would have raised it to 15 with overcards as well.

By the way, congrats on your KOTZ win.

[Huskiez]

cornell -

I agree for the most part with your post. He definitely has something good, most likely a 4. His VPIP is large enough to have a 43s, 54s, maybe even 42s. I am not sure I am able at this time to make such a tough fold to an online player with KK and a board draw heavy, but this hand definitely will set me on the right track.

However regarding,

[ QUOTE ]
if he had qq,jj, 1010 and for reason thought that was good vs you he woulda raised preflop and not post flop after you already raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that's necessarily true. He knows I most likely have high cards. He can play back thinking he's ahead on a low board. If he reraised preflop, there's a chance I reraise, and then he gets his money in while being most likely a 55-45 favorite only. If he waits for a flop and it comes with overcards, and I play in my typical loose aggressive style at the time, then he can get his money in while being much more than a 55-45 favorite. Also if he has a PFR of only 5, he doesn't necessarily reraise with JJ or TT, and maybe not even QQ.

So in my opinion QQ-TT were very likely holdings, and maybe even lower pairs that he thought were good. Hence the reason I pushed, as I figured a call from almost any overpair.

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]


I don't think that's necessarily true. He knows I most likely have high cards. He can play back thinking he's ahead on a low board. If he reraised preflop, there's a chance I reraise, and then he gets his money in while being most likely a 55-45 favorite only. If he waits for a flop and it comes with overcards, and I play in my typical loose aggressive style at the time, then he can get his money in while being much more than a 55-45 favorite. Also if he has a PFR of only 5, he doesn't necessarily reraise with JJ or TT, and maybe not even QQ.

So in my opinion QQ-TT were very likely holdings, and maybe even lower pairs that he thought were good. Hence the reason I pushed, as I figured a call from almost any overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea that quote was the weakest part of my post. but, the intended point was if he was somewhat smart, it would have been better for him to raise with his jj or qq preflop if he thought you had broadway cards instead of waiting for an undercard flop and reraising you to see where hes at. it is much more expensive to play for the reraise on the flop instead of raising preflop. if he raised preflop and you push back, he safely folds knowing hes beat, with only a small chance of you having AK and it being a coin flip. whereas if he tries to confirm that you only have overcards on the flop instead, it would cost him the preflop call, plus the 5 dollar bet, plus about 35 or 40 more for a reraise. money wise that would be just a bad play, so if he really is on jj or qq, he should reriase preflop since he has to act first on the flop. if you acted first he would be slightly more likely to wiat until the flop to reraise his jj/qq, but even still its probalby the wrong play

in your post, you said if the flop comes with overcards, he can push and get his money in as much more than a 55/45 favorite assuming he put you on overcards. i dont get this, seems he woudl never want to get his money in if a K flopped, he had QQ, and he put you on AK.

you said you think there is a good chance he has 1010-QQ. i think this is not likely for antoher reason. even if he thought you were on overcards preflop, he woudlnt have thought so post flop. if you were, when he bet 5 you woulda just called, not raised in most situations. so when he sees the raise, he shifts more to thiinking you have high pockets. preflop it may be 50/50 you have high pockts vs overcards, after you raise he has to assume 90 percent you have high pockets or more.

since he must assume this, he never would have min-reraised with 1010-QQ. at the very most he would have called. min raise is the worst optoin out of folding, calling, pushinhg, and min raising.

and this isnt even considering his decision to mini bet the flop. if he has 1010-qq, he either pots it, checks, or pushes. he hates to be called and see another card if he does indeed put you on overcards, so a 5 dollar bet would be a semi bad idea if he had something vulneratble like 1010-qq. i wouold usually see a bet check riase or check fold.

anyways, i think theres little chance he has mid-high pockets here, unless hes the type to completely misplay them.