Ram and jam with poor multi-way hands?

Thebram · #1 05-10-2004, 03:28 PM

This hand happened to me yesterday, and coincidentally, I stumbled upon this when reading HPFAP last night. (Each time I read some of this book, it amazes me how much I hadn't fully understood)

Basically If I were the button, I would have played the hand the exact same way. He had the best staring hand, so he raised and bet it every chance he got.
Now going based on HPFAPs concept of manipulating pot sizes in loose games to make draws incorrect to go for, did he play this incorrectly? His raise from the button pre-flop certainly wasn't going to knock any of the limpers out (with the exception of the posters), but it made my calls going for the gutshot absolutely correct. Had he just called pre-flop, and then raised the flop (which MP2 would have certainly bet), he would have made it incorrect for people to call 2SB to go for a draw.

Now my question is this, is my understanding of the concept correct? Was the button's raise wrong? Or just unlucky in this case?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.50. MP2 posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, Hero calls, CO calls, Button raises, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players) 
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players) 
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO folds.

River: (13.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players) 
MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, Button raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 22.75 BB
Main Pot: 22.75 BB, between MP2, Hero and Button. > Pot won by Hero (22.75 BB).

Results in white below: 
MP2 shows Th Ks (two pair, kings and tens).
Hero shows Jd Qd (straight, ace high).
Button shows As Ad (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 22.75 BB.

B Dids · #2 05-10-2004, 03:30 PM

You can't call with AA preflop out of fear that the flop may give somebody a draw that you've just given them the odds to try and hit.

More times than not he's made money on this hand because you stayed to the river to hit your gutshot.

Thebram · #3 05-10-2004, 04:22 PM

My understanding of what HPFAP is saying is, the goal is to just win the pot, not to win the biggest pot possible.

In this situation, what does the raise accomplish? Its still a multi-way pot that so big on the flop, any conceivable draw is correct in staying in.

In this particular case, the AA improved, so I believe more times than not, he will make money off of the other players given that he flops a set.

But had he not improved, KT would have been absolutely right to draw to his 2 pair.

Had AA just called from the button, he could have raised the flop, or even the turn and made the draws incorrect. Lowering the amount he would win, but raising the number of times he'd win it.

Or am I totally off in my interpretation?

B Dids · #4 05-10-2004, 04:36 PM

That might be what HEPFAP says (I honestly don't remember), but the way *I* see it is that it's in AA's best interest to have a large pot, chasing odds or not, because over time you'll still take that pot down often enough to make up for the times you'll lose.

sublime · #5 05-10-2004, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My understanding of what HPFAP is saying is, the goal is to just win the pot, not to win the biggest pot possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I belive what you are referring to is the section on "big pots in loose games" and he is referring to pots that are already big, and the post flop play tactics you may want to employ.

AA gets raised PF every time.

MaxPower · #6 05-10-2004, 05:12 PM

You are misunderstanding it. He should raise pre-flop to get more money in the pot with the best hand and cut down the implied odds of those who are trying to outdraw him.

You both played the hand fine.

CORed · #7 05-10-2004, 07:59 PM

Your primary reason for raising AA is to get more money in the pot. If you thin the field, that's OK, but it's not you primary reason for raising. AA is by far the best starting hand, whether you are against 1 player or 9. AA wins about 30% against 9 random hands played to the river. This may not sound good, but anything over 10% means a preflop raise is +EV. AA is not a poor multi-way hand. It has a better chance of winning unimproved with fewer players, but it still has a decent chance of winning unimproved multi-way and is huge if it improves to two pair with a board pair, a set, or a boat. Even if nobody folds and you are on the button or a blind, a raise with AA should be automatic. The only time you should even consider limping with AA is if you are opening against a really tight table, where your raise risks only stealing the blinds, or a very agressive table, where you have good chance of limp-reraising. Even in these situations, it's debatable whether the limp-reraise is better than a raise.

lu_hawk · #8 05-10-2004, 09:01 PM

You're thinking about this is wrong. Raising PF and giving a player correct odds to draw does not take EV away from you and does not make your bets -EV. Your bets and his calls can both have +EV and it comes from the money put into the pot by the players who didn't flop good draws. When you have AA every extra bet that goes into the pot before the flop increases your EV.

Dieter01 · #9 05-10-2004, 09:07 PM

Sorry if I am changing the topic her a little... I just want to ask a few questions with regards to gutshots, especially like in this case when there is a possible flush draw out there...

On the flop you have 3 clean outs if you assume the T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] will give someone a flush. That gives you about 15-1 chance of making your hand. With implied odds and everything thats an easy call in this case. But what odds do you require from the pot in order to chase gutshots on a flop like this? I hardly ever go after it when there is a flush out there, but maybe I am to scared... If there was anything less than there is now I would not call the flop. What is the norm among you more experienced players?

Now lets look at the turn. When the betting comes around to the hero he has a 13-1 on his draw. Three outs still mean about 15-1 chance of making the hand. But you can be pretty sure someone is going call the river if you make your hand, so considering implied odds the call on the turn is still correct.

But lets assume there was less money in the pot... Lets say MP2 folds the turn. Now you get 12-1 on your call, and one less potential bet if you do make your hand. From the way the betting has been going, I would say there is a fair chance everyone but the button will fold to your river bet unless they make a hand. The best situation I can see for the hero is check/raising the button (on the river, assuming you make your hand) and hoping another player gets trapped in between. Which should give you 4 more bets in the pot at the cost of two.

OK, so you have 15-1 on making your hand. And you can make 16 BB's if you do catch your hand. But thats more or less case scenario... You might only make 14 BB's back. Or 12... And there is also the remote possibility your T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] might not be good... So in this case I think I would fold the turn. Do you guys agree, or would you chase?

Thebram · #10 05-11-2004, 12:33 PM

From HPFAP, Part Four: Playing in Loose Games, When the Pots Get Big...

[ QUOTE ]
"...instead of reraising (before the flop) and giving your hand away, and then betting on the flop where most of your opponents will now correctly call you, you should just call (before the flop) and give up a little preflop equity in order to bet on the flop and have the original raiser on your left knock out all those people who were getting the proper price to chase."

[/ QUOTE ]

Now in their example, they specifically say you have KK or QQ on the button and face an UTG raiser with 6 callers. Obviously this is different than my case in several ways. (better starting hand, better table position, an already raised flop, several blinds and posters still could fold, no guaranteed bet-raise situation on the flop to knock others out)

Several people have said that always raising pre-flop with AA is +EV, and I do believe this to be correct, but could someone demonstrate this mathmatically in this case?

Say given my hand, and the button's hand, what is his EV after the turn given a pre-flop raise. (Where I had pot odds to make all of my calls.)
And what about given our hands after a pre-flop call? (Where I didn't have pot odds to make the same calls.)
And for the sake of argument, what would be the EV of the AA if I decided to correctly fold the flop after no pre-flop raise? (Which I would have done, I might add)

I'll try and calculate all of these myself, but I thought some of you might be able to come up with these numbers faster than I will.