Getting to the Roots

[deacsoft]

Let me start by listing the definitions of a few words most of us all know and could use, but don't give much thought to.

EGO-an exaggerated sense of self-importance; conceit

CONFIDENT-a feeling of assurance, especially of self-assurance

PRIDE-an excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit

ARROGANT-having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance

CONCEIT-a favorable and especially unduly high opinion of one's own abilities or worth

Different words with similar definitions. Each openly displayed throughout the world of poker and in mass right here in the forums of 2+2. Self-opinions seem to clash at nearly every table and in nearly every post. It seems some feed from it and others send themselves in to a bankroll harming tilt. Some posters simply overlook it and others do what they can to argue post after post. What is the diference between the two types? What makes one player able to handle it, and what causes another player to crumble? Is it better to have more pride or arrogance than ego or confidence? Do any of these contribute subconciously to a players level of skill? Is there a place in poker for these? Lastly, since we all have these in one form or another, is there anything you do to keep your's in check?

Just something that I'm curious to hear your thoughts and opinions about. If you would like to offer an answer to any/all of the questions or just general comments; please feel free to post.



disclaimer: i am not pointing fingers or naming names and big ego does not have to mean you. so, let's look at this post for it's what it is and not start WWII+II. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[LetsRock]

Amongst the attributes you define, I would say that the best poker players would be confident.

Confident that he/she has the abilty to make the right decisions. Able to maintain the confidence regardless of what ugliness may be happening at that particular time.

All of the other similar attributes would lead us into forms of tilt when things aren't going well and might make us act like complete asses when things are running hot.

Taking an honest look at myself, I would say that I have a bit of (probably unworthy) arrogance, which leads to much displeasure when things are not running "as they should".

My confidence: I "know" that I'm good, probably as good or better than most opponents at the level I am playing. I know that I make good decisions most of the time (I am only human) and that I have been winning with regularity since I started taking poker seriously. Given a reasonable amount of decent hands, I will have a winning session.

My arrogance kicks in when I watch the carnage of some knucklehead winning a session despite his really poor play, and have trouble dealing with the "fairness" of the situation - that guy doesn't deserve to win; he/she obviously hasn't done the work required to allow him to benefit from this game. I "deserve" to get better cards than this and deserve to win; I've done the work, paid my dues and should not be subjected to this nonsense. (For the record, I have this tendency about just about everything I do; money isn't the issue.)

I know intellectually, that "deserve" and "fair" are not words that belong in good player's mentality, but honestly, the feelings do creep up when I'm having a particularly ugly session. I know, that "good" players depend on the "lucky" players for profit and that the lucky players would not be around to donate if they didn't have at least a few good sessions here and there, but in the heat of the moment, it doesn't seem that I really want that sucker to chase that rediculous hand to the river.

This is probably my biggest leak - the inability to keep my arrogance in check when the chips are down. The problem is much worse for me on-line than it is live; playing live I keep myself in check fairly well for many reasons. When playing on-line, I can go absolutely berserk and have actually found myself in tears because of the emotional stress. I'm not proud of this, but self analysis is critical to improvement, and I'm hoping that as I get more experienced I will find a way to keep this emotion in check and remeber to look at the big picture: I'm a winner, and this session means nothing.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Listen up, EGO boy! You ain't never gonna be as important as WE~!! I'm "quite" CONFIDENT of that! We here at 2+2 take PRIDE in our stupendous stuperiority! So don't be so ARROGANT as to think you can compete with the likes of WE! That would show massive CONCEIT on your part! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

"WWII+II" ... that's great! I luv it! Just don't post on the NVG forum or other topics forum and usually you can avoid this!

al

[deacsoft]

I'm a big fan of your posts and here is another good one. I can relate to much of what you said in your post. A touch of arrogance has always been there for me too. That line between arrogance and confidence sometimes makes it hard for me to determine which it is. I'll walk in to my local casino and think to myself, "I'm going to own these poor bastards". I think that's just a little more than being confident. Not just that I'm sure I'll play well but that I'm better than all of the other players at the table (which the majority of the time is true. this casino is full of fish nearly every day). Do you think your arrogance is helpful in any way? Do you think it hurts you in anyway? Are you doing anything to try to lose it or tone it down? Do you think it's okay to be a bit arrogant? Is there room for these self opinions in poker?

[toots]

Depending on what table I walk up to, I can also have this arrogant "I'm going to own these chumps" attitude - especially at the lower limit tables.

But that arrogance often evaporates after a few beats, replaced by some degree of hurt, chased by the confusion over having been beat out of a hand by someone making decisions based on thought processes that aren't entirely apparent to me.

When I'm against someone who's doing better than I am, even though he's making plays that seem... odd, I'm left with a few basic conclusions:

1) I'm playing great, and he's playing poorly and just getting lucky
2) I'm just getting unlucky
3) He's playing better than I am, and the reason that his play doesn't make sense to me is that I'm not a better player than him, or I just haven't figured out his game

By far, the most important of those is #3, but I think it's often the most overlooked possibility. People will often retreat into the conceit of choice #1.

I don't find #1 or #2 to be at all useful until you can prove that something other than luck isn't at play. Even if someone's playing poorly, it's important to understand why he makes the decisions that he does (and for more specific reasons than "he's stupid"), so that you can turn it to your advantage and minimize the effects of luck.

Unfortunately, I'm not there yet, being locked in a permanent state of #3, although I do have my arrogance to keep me company.

[LetsRock]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a big fan of your posts and here is another good one.

[/ QUOTE ]


Wow I have a fan! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
Thanks (but I'm not here for a popularity contest.)

I don't think arrogance is good in any way. When the line is crossed from confidence to arrogance, the ego and other harmful self-serving tendencies come into play that are just not needed. I believe that arrogance is what makes me angry when things don't go well, and smug when I'm running over the table. I don't like either extreme. In a perfect world, I'd lose arrogance all together and strive to enjoy the game, win or lose and just maintain the confidence in knowing that "this" session is just a blip on the map. If I'm being outplayed, learn from it; if I'm being outdrawn, suck it up and come back later for a refund with interest. In some regards, I would love to have a robot's mentality to the game - it's all just statistics. But since, I can't do that, I'll settle for having fun while making good decisions. Someday.....

[cero_z]

Hi deacsoft,
Maybe you know me. Cero is my real name, and I'm from Madison, also (I live in VA now). I mention that because if you know me, you know that I definitely at least straddle the line between confidence and arrogance.
Anyway, when I was in Tunica in January, an old pro I respect immensely had this to say about it. He said, "People may say you have a big ego, which is probably true, and they mean it in a bad way. But what they don't take into account is that you probably couldn't have had much success without that ego to push you through."
What I took from that is that we should appreciate our egos for the courage it affords us, while recognizing the great capacity for self-destruction that such an ego also affords. Gambling is an activity that provides lots of opportunities for rational people to have self-doubt. Sometimes, all the math and other people's opinions in the world aren't enough to get you through the periods of struggle. You need an almost irrational confidence in your own abilities (since you may be in uncharted territory) to remain persistent in the face of failure.

[deacsoft]

That was a good post. It really got me to thinking. Maybe an ego is there to push you when you're near failure. Everything else in the body has defense mechanisims. Why wouldn't the ego or the arrogance? Could that explain why a usually cool, calm, and polite person like myself can flip out after being beaten by an inferior player, with a horrid hand, 3 outs, and no odds? Could it be that it is only my ego/arrogance trying to save face by defending its self? If so, is there a way to channel this defensive behavior in to a powerful poker weapon? I'm going to need to think about this for a day or so while playing and see if I can come up with anything. I'll get back to you guys...

I wish Dr. Schoonmaker was still in town to supply us with another perspective.

[comic2b]

P.S. Cero - Great post

I want to chime in because this is something I've been thinking a lot about lately.

First I have a lot of confidence or a very big ego depending on how you want to look at it. I have been playing poker for about a year and a half in the home game circuit. My nickname is "Genius", it truly is nice to have a place where everyone knows your name. My real name is Mike and I was disappointed in the start of my career that I might not even be able to be the best or most influential poker player named Mike. With Mike Caro "The Mad Genius" out there who was I? My mentor goes well I guess you are just the Genius and the name stuck.

I am one of the most annoying, funniest, and entertaining people to play poker with. Part of it is real and who I am as a person, the other part is a deliberate table image that I have chosen. Some of the obnoxious mannerisms that I have been known to do are start clapping and celebrating when I sweep a big pot or start talking trash. (A side note, I'm not as much as a jerk as I seem.)

As a consequence of my behavior some wierd things have happened. I remember one night when the table was really laughing at me after losing a few big pots in a row. People will openly root against me for the other player if they are not in the pot. I also have the whole table chasing and gunning for me at times.

One thing I would like to point out and it has been said is that I never go on tilt. And I really don't I have never played against anyone who I thought had better tilt protection. This comes from self confidence and a hard external shell that I play poker with.

I'm not sure what information I added to the discussion, but I do believe that a person needs some measure of the above to be a successful player. However that which makes a person strong can also be their greatest weakness.

P.S. One of my favorite things to say at the table lately is when you have an opponnent who is unsure of whether to call or not I'll say, "Don't call... that's your pride screwing with your head."

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi comic:

When I read posts like yours I can't help but think that these antics are designed to cover other short comings in your game. Certainly I could be wrong. But in home games, where players tend to be weak, you can probably win a little just by playing tighter than most of your opponents.

Now this isn't to say that these antics don't have some value if applied correctly. But it takes a real expert, someone with a very good understanding of strategy and your opponents to know when to do this stuff to increase your profits a little. And notice I sid a little, not a lot.

So my advice would be to concentrate on how to improve your underlying game. This will be especially true if you enter the world of casin games or go to higher limits.

By the way, you're not the first "Genius" I've given this advice to. The other guy always got very "mad" when he heard it, but he could have used it as well.

Best wishes,
Mason