Flush Draw: Raise on Turn?

Blindfolk · #1 05-03-2004, 12:00 AM

MP3 is loose, but seems to be good. Or so I thought. If my read was correct and he actually was alright, should I have
raised the turn?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, MP3 (poster) calls, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players) 
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 folds, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players) 
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (12.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players) 
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP3 3-bets, Hero caps, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 20.25 BB
Main Pot: 20.25 BB, between Hero and MP3. > Pot won by Hero (20.25 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Jc Ac (flush, ace high).
MP3 shows 7s 3c (high card, king).
Outcome: Hero wins 20.25 BB.

elitegimp · #2 05-03-2004, 12:03 AM

I bet the flop (and raise/cap as necessary) but just check/call the turn. Also, consider 3-betting pre-flop.

blackaces13 · #3 05-03-2004, 12:14 AM

You shouldn't raise the flop here, you don't want to shut out the rest of the field. If the bet was on your left then you want to raise (if you don't think the guy on your left will re-raise) because the people in the middle are trapped for bets. I'd probably bet the flop and then only raise it again if there were more than 2 players in for 2 bets each.

There is no reason to raise the turn here. You can't raise the turn for value againt 2 players and because the chances of you getting BOTH opponents to fold to a raise is just about nil, all you are doing is building a pot that you aren't likely to win while at the same time possibly reducing the amount that you will be paid if you hit your hand. Both are BAD.

One more thing:

[ QUOTE ]
MP3 is loose, but seems to be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

THINK AGAIN MY FRIEND!!! MP3 is INCREDIBLY BAD. His play in this hand is the funniest thing I've read all day.

SoCalPat · #4 05-03-2004, 12:23 AM

Agreed with blackaces on your flop play. It was a bad move, given your position to the raiser and the rest of the field. This is a situation in which you want four people calling one bet, and not two people calling two bets.

The only way I'd consider raising the turn is if I gained additional outs (any A,J,Q,T,3 or 4) here. You didn't. Calling here is a must. There's absolutely no value to raising here.

As for MP3, sometimes you just gotta ask yourself, "Who do these people think they're kidding?"

jmark · #5 05-03-2004, 12:29 AM

I don't see why you want to raise. You're forcing everyone to call 2 bets cold. Yes, you'll scare some out but you're never going to win the pot right there. You want nice juicy multiway action for your juicy draw.

PS This is the funniest thing I've seen all day:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players) 
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB folds, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players) 
MP2 bets, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, Hero caps, MP2 calls.

River: (14 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players) 
MP2 bets $1.65 (All-In), Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15.65 BB
Main Pot: 15.65 BB, between MP2 and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (15.65 BB).

Results in white below: 
MP2 shows 6h Ad (one pair, kings).
Hero shows 7h 7c (full house, sevens full of kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 15.65 BB.

flexus · #6 05-03-2004, 12:54 AM

preflop is fine

I would bet out on the flop. What you don't want to do is precisely what you did. You checkraised so that the entire field had to call two bets cold. This is not how you play a flush draw. This play would be fine with TPTK, but in this case its rather the opposite. You wan't as many people as possible with you here.

There is no reason to raise the turn. It cannot be raised for value, and the semi-bluff value a raise might have in a higher limit game is largely diminished by the fact that the micro players simply don't fold enough. To make a profit from a turn raise, you must be able to win it right there a fair amount of the time (If you don't believe you have the best hand).

nice catch on the river.

Blindfolk · #7 05-03-2004, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]

THINK AGAIN MY FRIEND!!! MP3 is INCREDIBLY BAD. His play in this hand is the funniest thing I've read all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was what I had seen from the previous hands. That's why I added "Or so I thought" in the original post.

Also, thanks everyone. I think I've got these flush draws down.

chrisdhal · #8 05-03-2004, 05:13 PM

The classic short stack "I'm going to blow everything" play. Funny as hell here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

MortalNuts · #9 05-03-2004, 05:19 PM

I disagree with a lot of what people are telling you in this thread.

Check-raising the flop is NOT a terrible play here. The pot is already getting pretty large. if people want to fold when it's two bets cold to them, that's fine -- you stand a greater chance of winning if you spike an Ace. And they may well decide to call two cold anyway (they're getting 7.75:1 or better even with the c-r, so you're actually HAPPY to get a lot of hands out). Point is, good things can happen when you raise. Did I mention the pot was getting big? Anyway, the only reason I wouldn't go for the check-raise here is if it's pretty likely MP3 would raise a flop bet and allow me to 3-bet.

A lot of the time, I would bet the turn. Again, the pot is not small, you're only against two people, and people DO sometimes fold for a single bet here; they're getting more than 10:1 on a call, so they're correct in calling with an awfully wide range of hands. If they fold, you're happy. You also disguise your hand with a bet, as opposed to holding up a big sign that says "I have a flush draw" with your checkraise the flop, check-call the turn line. Having instead checked, I don't think a checkraise is terrible either -- again, if this gets UTG to fold a hand like A2, you're thrilled, and it's not completely unreasonable to expect that he'll do so often enough to make this profitable.

nice hand.

just my 2c.

cheers,

mn

MortalNuts · #10 05-03-2004, 05:25 PM

You might want to take a look at this thread (A2 UTG), in which Ed Miller advocates check-raising the flop in a somewhat similar situation. That one wasn't clear-cut, either, but just to give you an idea...

cheers,

mn