Playing big slick against a maniac

[Crumpled Ear]

Reno, Circus Circus, 3-6.

I've been at the table for an hour, folding hand after hand preflop while watching a maniac who is capping preflop with just about anything (e.g., K6 suited, a pair of 3s). I've seen him show down/bluff with a J high hand (no pair). When a chair opens to his immediate left, I grab it and, amazingly, get dealt big slick 3 times in one round:

1. I'm dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in middle postion. The maniac opens with a raise and I reraise to isolate him. All others fold. Flop is ragged and rainbow. Maniac bets, I raise, he reraises, I call. Turn is also ragged. He bets, I call. An 8 falls on the river, he bets, I call and he takes the pot with his A8 offsuit.

2. I'm dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] the very next hand. The maniac raises. Again I raise to isolate. Only the big blind calls. The flop is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] . BB checks, Maniac bets, I raise, BB folds, Maniac reraises, and I call. The turn brings a 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The maniac bets and I call. The river is a 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Maniac bets and I call. Maniac takes it with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

3. I'm on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] . Two limpers to the maniac who (big surprise here!) raises. I reraise. Limpers call. Maniac caps. All call. The flop comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. 1st limper bets, 2nd folds, Maniac raises, I fold, 1st limper raises, maniac calls. Turn is a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Limper bets, maniac folds.

Based on this episode, I have 2 questions:

1. What do you all do when your AK misses the flop heads up against a maniac. Grit your teeth and call it to the river?

2. What if your AK misses the flop, the board is ragged, and there are others in the pot with you and the maniac?

[Bob T.]

I like how you played all three hands.

If it is a full blown maniac, this is what I will do. If I am in the seat next to the maniac, I am going to try and isolate him everytime I have an Ace, a medium pair, or a king and another big card. Post flop, I will put in more action if I have AJ or better, and then if it is headsup I will go to showdown. If you flop good, try and get some raises in on the turn and river.

You have to remember that there will be a lot of variance, so when you play you have to remember that every hand is going to swing 5 or 6 big bets. If you get to play enough of them, you will come out ahead.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Warik]

I am curious as to why we aggressively play AK when the flop misses us and bet the river or call river bets after failing to pair.

Suppose we have AJ or AQ in LP after it's limped/folded to us and nobody re-raises. With AJ and AQ as overcards, the only non-pairing hands that beat us are AQ and AK, which likely would have re-raised or raised before us preflop, so we know it's likely nobody has them. Any other pair, even pocket deuces, has us beat... so why do we aggressively play AK postflop and not the other unpaired hands that are only behind the hands that we can reasonably assume nobody has?

That being said, I would have played the 3 hands just like you did, which is why I am wondering if such AK play could be a leak in most of our games.

Anybody care to comment?

[Crumpled Ear]

With others in the pot, I slow down considerably with AK, but with this maniac showing down anything, I felt I had to go to the end. I think you bring up a good point, though, about what to do with this hand if you don't hit the flop. I think Lee Jones suggests dumping it (though I'm not sure). Even so, I wonder about this. With a raise before the flop and a few folks in the hand, I'll usually stay in the hand with middle pair top kicker--5 outs. With AK, you've got 6 outs. Why, then, shouldn't you stay with it? Granted, if you hit, you've only got a pair rather than 2 pair, though. Just a thought.

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
With AK, you've got 6 outs. Why, then, shouldn't you stay with it? Granted, if you hit, you've only got a pair rather than 2 pair, though. Just a thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right - but with AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, and QT you also have 6 outs... heck, with any overcards you have at least 6 outs if you assume they're all clean.

But someone could ask... "But what if you have AQ, pair your queens and a king falls?"

OK - what if you have AK and you DON'T pair your A/K and a 2 ,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,T,J, or Q falls (more likely than the other case) and pairs someone else?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that I want someone to tell me why I'M wrong.

According to twodimes, AKo vs. pocket 2s on a 3,5,8 rainbow board only has a 26.26% chance to win.

If you change AKo to KTo (the super terrible awful hand that most of us only play from LP or out of the blinds), KTo's chances against pocket 2s is 26.67 (slightly higher - I'm not sure why, I'd imagine AKo should be slightly higher than KTo).

On a seemingly ragged flop, KTo and AKo have almost the same chances of victory against the worst "made" hand - pocket deuces.

I've had AKo 128 times, AQo 141, AJo 182, and KTo 138... yet AQo, AJo, and KTo have all won me more money than AKo - starting at 2x more with KTo and 10x more with AQo... then again, I fold KTo when the flop misses me, but I play on with AKo.

It's something to think about.... or maybe I need 500,000 hands before I can assume anything.

[BaronVonCP]

You should not be playing AK, much differently postflop than you do AQ or AJ. The main difference is that you will have more overcard outs on some flops.

Your actions should depend on the pot size and the tendencies of your opponents.

If you would Play AQ differently than you would AK facing a bet on a rag flop, you need to adjust your play.

[cwl]

your not factoring the case where both you and your opponent have unimproved big cards. if your against a weak made hand like 22 then your right, there isnt much difference between KTo and AKo but if both you and your opponent have overcards would you rather be the guy with AK or KT? i dont mean to imply that you should go to your grave clutching your unimproved AKo but it is better. this is particularly true in a heads up situation where the possibility that neither you nor your opponent hit anything is much greater.

[Crumpled Ear]

Considering you raised before the flop with AK and presumably did not with KT, your bet on the flop might also get your opponent to fold more often than KT would.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
KTo's chances against pocket 2s is 26.67 (slightly higher - I'm not sure why, I'd imagine AKo should be slightly higher than KTo).

[/ QUOTE ]

I like these kinds of puzzles.

It's because a 4 on the turn or river kills your ace.