Fold nut flush draw?

[THE OUTLAW]

5/10 live

SB w/ A7h. EP limper, button limps, I call, BB calls.
Flop: Jh9hXo I check-raise the field after the BB bets, all call.
Turn: To I check, BB bets, EP raises, button cold calls. I fold my nut draw, knowing that I am getting the proper odds to call. 110-20= 5.5-1, for a 4.5-1 shot.

I thought that there was a good chance that there was another flush draw out there with me, which takes two of my outs away. Also not all of my hearts are outs. At least one of them will fill up my opponents. So instead of your typical 9 outer, I may be drawing to only 5. I think this is very borderline. I just didnt feel right calling. Comments?

[sthief09]

folding doesn't win money, and this is a horrible, horrible fold [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

you can't just assume that someone has another flush draw, plus someone has a set, plus plus plus

the fact of the matter is that even if you decided the odds weren't good enough, you still get all kinds of implied odds, especially if there's another flush out there

[SpaceAce]

You folded knowing you had the proper odds to chase. What more do you need to know? Next time don't fold.

You reasoning about other flush draws being out and one of your hearts filling up an opponent is wrong, I think. Unexposed cards are unexposed cards; you don't know where the rest of your hearts are and in the long run any given card will be live as often as it is dead. Yes, some of your outs are probably missing because they almost always are but you never know which and when. Also, what makes you so sure one of your opponents has a set or two pair involving a non-heart card?

SpaceAce

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
the fact of the matter is that even if you decided the odds weren't good enough, you still get all kinds of implied odds, especially if there's another flush out there


[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, I meant to mention that in my reply. If you're facing another flush, you are going to get paid quite handsomely when you both hit. In fact, facing a set, a straight and a smaller flush would be like a dream come true. You would more than make up for the times someone did fill up on you.

SpaceAce

[jt1]

These are very revealing responses. Are you saying you should always call 2 bets cold with a flush draw or just with the nut flush draw? And what if you were absolutely sure that the button who cold called was also drawing for a flush. Would you still call with the nut flush? How about any other flush draws? Please respond. I'm in the tight weak zone right now and need to get out of it. thanks

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
These are very revealing responses. Are you saying you should always call 2 bets cold with a flush draw or just with the nut flush draw? And what if you were absolutely sure that the button who cold called was also drawing for a flush. Would you still call with the nut flush? How about any other flush draws? Please respond. I'm in the tight weak zone right now and need to get out of it. thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not say you should always call two cold with a flush draw but it is very rarely correct to lay down the nut flush draw in these low limit games. I would say that, except for extraordinary circumstances such as a double-paired board or a tiny little pot, you're almost always making a mistake to fold the nut flush draw.

If I were absolutely sure someone was drawing to a flush in the same suit as mine, I would be in serious danger of injuring my wrist from trying to get my money into the pot as quickly as possible. A smaller flush will pay you off bigtime. I would definitely make this call getting 5.5:1 with seven outs.

If I had a draw to the flush with 45s and I knew for a fact someone else was drawing to the same flush, I would be much less inclined to call multiple bets. When you are drawing to the nut flush, you know the only thing that can beat you is a full house or better. There is no danger of getting there only to lose to the A+1-high flush.

In short, you usually don't want to fold the nut flush draw in a low limit Hold'Em game. In the hand being discussed in this thread, the immediate odds to draw were there and as the board stood, the nut flush draw would have been the nuts. Yes, sometimes someone will fill up on you but I really can't imagine a situation where I would lay down the nut flush draw while getting proper odds to chase (barring a double-paired board, a board with trips, etc).

SpaceAce

[Joe Tall]

You must make this call. Let alone it's a draw to the nuts.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Randy Burgess]

As the other posters have let you know, that was a horrible fold. With that turn the raiser could have had two pair, a straight, etc. You have no way of putting any of your opponents on a set. If the board pairs on the river and there's beaucoup action you'll have an easy fold. You're getting an overlay from the pot even if one of your outs is tainted. If you make your flush on the river without the board pairing and a smaller flush gives you action, your implied odds go through the roof. Etc., etc.

I'm more curious about your flop check-raise. What's your reasoning here? I don't really like it because a miss on the turn forces you to check (as you did), and this gives opponents a clue that you may be on a draw. If I were to check-raise as you did I would go ahead and bet my miss on the turn to avoid leaking information...but I don't like that approach much, either. The whole thing seems too fancy to me, but I could be wrong.

[Mike Gallo]

The whole thing seems too fancy to me, but I could be wrong.

I think you made a correct statement [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

[beta77]

I don't think that you can make the assumption that there is another flush draw out there at this point in the hand. In these games, I wouldn't be surprised to see someone drawing to the str8 with a Q in their hand with that board. I think that your argument regarding possible dead outs is interesting, and not necessarily invalid if you can get a VERY solid read on what someone else "MUST" have. In this particular case, however, I think that you may have misapplied the reasoning. This is a draw heavy board and you have the best draw available. Additionally, I would be more inclined to make this laydown with a non-nut flush draw, since you may then be the one paying off the nuts and not vice versa.