KQo and ATo SUCK!

[Schaefer]

I just recently got Poker Tracker and I must say that it is unbelievably cool. So much info in there I could sift through it for days.

One big piece of information I now have is the value of each hand. My big hands are slowly organizing themselves and I'm learning a lot about speculative hands.

KQo and ATo are my biggest losers. 27 KQo and 24 ATo may not be a big enough sample size but my results have really set off some alarms in my head. I like openraising these in late position but I think I'm going too far and raising or limping too early. I will now muck these early and only play them late, without many opponents.

Do those of you with Poker Tracker have the same sort of results with these hands? I'm sure most of you in 2+2 land already know how bad those two hands are. Poker Tracker rules because I'm not smart enough to figure these things out on my own. STUPID!

At least the Mariners won. 7-13 baby!

Schaefer

[joker122]

I agree, in part. KQ is one of my biggest losers but ATo is one of my biggest winners. The only thing I can think of to account for this is that KQ is prone to make a second best hand after the pot has been raised behind you, and I overvalue it when I flop top pair, second or third kicker.

[asdf1234]

Eh, I do pretty well with KQo, better than AKo in fact, but that's because you can pry my AKo from my cold dead hands (I probably have to work on that). ATo is a small loser for me, but I don't play it that often. My worst hand is T9s, but looking through the hands, that's because I've missed flushes more often that I statistically should.

[blackaces13]

KQo is bad? I'm in 2+2 land and I did not know this. I thinks its pretty damn good. I almost always raise unraised pots with it.

[bisonbison]

KQ is my favorite hand. I hate ATo.

[MarkD]

Ok, I am personally of the opinion that it is going to take a LOT of hands to before you get any real indication of EV of a specific hand. I'm talking about needing a PT database of hundreds of thousands of hands. If your sample size for a specific hand is a few thousand hands I might think that the number is trustworthy but 25 certainly isn't.

For example, in my database 55 comes in 3rd place for top money makers in terms of BB/hand. It only wins 27% of the time I get it but I am averaging 1.22 BB/hand. Would it be accurate for me to say that 55 is my 3rd best hand or would it be safe for me to assume that QQ (ranked 7) is my 3rd best hand because it really is the 3rd best hand?

Also, at 5/10 QQ is currently one of my worst hands (only been dealt 17 times). Does that mean I play it wrong or that it's a bad hand? I doubt it on both accounts.

I believe it's very dangerous to use your short term results for specific hands to adjust your pre-flop play.

[EWillers]

I agree whole heartedly with MarkD's notion of being leary of making too much out of hand specific stats without a very large sample.

That being said, here's my relevant info on ATo and KQo


ATo KQo

Times 620 619
VPIP 41.6 80.6
Win% WSF 15.5 30.19
BB/hand .02 .19


Generally I limp KQo from any position in an unraised pot. I fold from any position in a raised pot (except for the BB depening on the circumstance).

I only play ATo from latish position (and the SB) in an unraised pot. I fold to a raise from any posion except the big blind.

These #'s may be a bit skewed as about 1/2 way through this database I stopped folding KQo in early position.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Generally I limp KQo from any position in an unraised pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious as to why you don't raise with it. Its a pretty substantial winner for you and you have a lot of hands with it. If you're limping in LP you'd probably make more $$ by raising it since you seem to do so well with it. And raising it EP and thinning the field is a good thing to do with KQo since I believe its value diminishes the more multiway the hand gets.

[Bob T.]

I open raise with both of these hands. Maybe you aren't winning enough with them, because you are playing them to passively.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[asdf1234]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you aren't winning enough with them, because you are playing them to passively

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I didn't used to raise either of these hands preflop, but do much better with them now that I do.