Would you have played differently?

[Crumpled Ear]

I'm at Excalibur, spread limit $2-6. I'm on the button with black nines. New to the table with no reads.

UTG calls, three other callers, hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG reraises, all others including hero call.

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)

UTG bets, 1MP calls (others fold), hero raises, UTG reraises, 1MP calls, hero caps.

Turn: (K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (three players)
UTG bets, 1MP calls, hero reraises, UTG reraises, 1MP calls, hero calls.

River: (K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img](three players)
UTG bets, 1MP folds, hero calls

[Crumpled Ear]

UTG has QQ and takes the pot.

[Ralph Wiggum]

I'm not familiar with the spread limit betting structure, but I think it was well played. When he reraises on the turn, it gets me thinking that he's possibly got a set. I don't see myself doing anything different.

[AviD]

I think you played it just fine.

I'm guessing UTG either limped with AA or AKs, I'd be somewhat surprised to see KK or QQ here, if you do he is poorly misplaying his hand by limping UTG. But it is possible, if he has been sitting awhile and has a feel for the table texture, that limp-reraising is acceptable with hands like AA or AKs.


Preflop is fine.
Flop capping is good.

Turn, you raised and got 3-bet...the question is, what hand do you put him on here? What hands beat you? KK/QQ/JT are about it. Would he limp/re-raise with any of those hands? Do you want to give him credit for it?

What hands does he put you on that you'd raise from a late position but not cap preflop? I think KQo/KQs/AKo are likely candidates (assuming this player is even thinking about this type of analysis, which he probably isn't)

I think I cap the turn and see what his river action is. If he bets into you, not having a read here, I'd probably just call...having put my action in on the turn for the extra BB..rather than calling the turn 3-bet and raising the river (maybe getting 3-bet again).

I'd certainly say he doesn't have you on 99 for a flopped set and likely has you on something more in line of KQs/KQo/AKo...of which you have to wonder what could he possibly be playing like this? The only sensible hands (postflop) are KK/QQ. I can't imagine him limp-reraising with KQo/KQs nor JTo/JTs, and really don't want to credit him for KK/QQ...so I have him on AA or AKs.

If he has KK or especially QQ and played it this way, I make a note of it and may credit such poor play from him in the future! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[AviD]

I just finished my post, now reading this.

Make a note of it...extremely poor play on his part for limp-reraising with QQ and letting any weak A or weak K, and more so building the pot and creating the odds for all the other players to correctly draw on him.

IMO he got lucky this time and popped a Q that held up.

As I said in my reply, I would have put an extra BB in on the turn and called his river bet.

[LetsRock]

I don't raise PF with 99 here, but this couldn't have hurt you as things turned out.

Flop - I play it just as you did. Gotta love this so far - his AK or even KQ is no good here.....

Turn - Hmmm... Bet into me and reraised? I'm getting a little worried now. I have seen (and done) a limp reraise with KK before, but it's pretty unusual. I think I go into call down mode as you did.

River - well you can't love another diamond as he could easily have a suited ace (AQ) and have played the hand this way (if he's really insane) so call down feels correct here.

After reading results, you just got unlucky and I think you played the hand well - QQ would have been about 10th on the list of hands I'd out him on.

A friend of mine says "If you don't lose a bunch with an underset, you didn't play it right" (or something like that) so you did what you could and gave him credit for a winner at the same time I would have.

[JTG51]

Make a note of it...extremely poor play on his part for limp-reraising with QQ and letting any weak A or weak K, and more so building the pot and creating the odds for all the other players to correctly draw on him.

When you have QQ you don't want A9o and KTo playing for multiple bets preflop?

[Abagadro]

I wouldn't want to let a weak A or K get in for 1 bet (or in the blind for 1/2 or free) because of the limp. I agree building isn't bad once your gamble pays off and someone does raise (Original poster didn't give a flavor of the table, maybe the guy played it perfect knowing someone would pop it).

[JTG51]

I wouldn't be very happy if everyone got in for one bet preflop either, but that's the chance you take when you limp raise.

My point was that AviD is wrong to say QQ played it poorly for both letting Ax and Kx play and for creating a huge pot. I'd retire in a week if I could play QQ multiway for 3 bets preflop against Ax and Kx every hand.

[AviD]

Why would you want to let a weak Ax or Kx in any hand where you hold QQ by not open raising UTG?

What does limp-reraising here accomplish?
- Obviously getting more money in the pot AFTER there are already players "committed".
- Creating the immediate pot odds and implied odds for anyone who flops a draw to continue.

My point being...

Mistake #1 (IMHO) in limping is allowing any Ax or Kx to limp to see the flop.

Mistake #2 (IMHO) in limp re-raising with QQ UTG is that it *may* be a good move towards making it two more cold in a game such that thinking players may fold, but in this case generates a large pot and therefore makes poor players (perhaps not the case in this game, who knows) make correct calls with poor cards and poor draws. Albeit some may think, "they are coming along anyway", this has not been my observation in playing limits from .5/1 to 3/6.

Combined you are now letting BOTH Ax and Kx in the hand AND giving ANY reasonable (or even unreasonable) drawing hand the correct odds to draw out on you.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd retire in a week if I could play QQ multiway for 3 bets preflop against Ax and Kx every hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You aren't playing just Ax and Kx here.
You certainly aren't going to pop a Q consistently enough to beat out Ax or Kx.
IMO, you'd be broke in 3 weeks playing QQ this way UTG.

But, I digress, we do not know the table texture or the quality of players, so my opinion is highly speculative. Perhaps UTG had some reason for pulling this move, but had the Q not flopped (which he NEEDED it to do in this case), he would have lost this hand more times than he would have won it.

Point in case, set of 9s.

Again, this is just my opinion on the play. Wish we had more replies, as I am not convinced my thinking is correct or incorrect at this point.

I am convinced limping UTG with QQ is poor.

I am not convinced limp-reraising isn't at least a better move than limp-calling, unless you assume the PF raisor will get checked to (in a LP) and you will be CRing him/her. Even then, what if an A or K flops...where are you at? Come out betting and likely have the whole field call? Are you folding to a raise with that pot? Or are you going to CR the flop still, and when people call 2 cold...what are you putting them on?

IMO, you'd have alot of difficulty putting anyone here on a hand, and if you only had QQ on a board with A or K and/or a straight draw and/or a flush draw...how are you going to play it out in a MW situation. Seems like you are making it difficult on yourself with a hand like this, and granted it worked out, he popped a set and drag a nice pot...I find it hard to believe that would be a long term profitable play. If it were, everyone would be limping UTG with AA/KK/QQ/JJ regularly.

The only reason I like the raise part of the limp-reraise is the simple fact that it makes it two more cold to the field. In such cases that players are capable of making the fold, you have accomplished generating a larger pot and limited the field.

In most games (especially low limit), versus most opponents...once they have put ANYTHING in preflop...they are paying however many additional bets to see the flop. Point in case, the limp-reraise didn't push anyone out...it just generated a larger (MW drawing) pot. IMO that isn't good for QQ.