How to react in this situation?

[Mufus]

Hi!

This saturday I played in a local tourney (aprox 80$). Its not a casino or card room, but it is more like a card club with a tourney director. The director for this tourney wasn't the same guy that usually is. There has been problems with too drunk players before but just as everybody believed this problem belonged to history this hand comes up:

We have played for aproximately 3 hrs, im in LP and its folded to me, I raise. It's folded to BB (the drunk) he calls. Dealer (dealer is a player) deals down the flop and the drunk picks up one of his cards and delibaretly exposes it to me, when he reaches for the next card I tell him to hold his cards for himself because im not interested in them and if it happends again I'll call for tourney director and ask for the drunks hand to be ruled dead (the hand should be ruled dead here right??) The drunk reacts telling me to mind my own business and let him do as he wants to do. At this point I decide to rest my case and hope that the situation calms down.. Dealer deals the turn and the river. The drunk then delibaretly shows me both cards on purpose!!! I decide to call for tourney director and he states that the hand should be ruled dead but the drunk didnt know it and from now on all exposed cards will be ruled dead... Many players come to the table and says that they want the drunks hand ruled dead and the pot given to me, but the objections leads nowhere and the drunk takes down the pot..

1. The hand should be ruled dead here right?
2. How to react to this situation?


The drunk starts to get agressive verbally against me for the next 15 minutes, and then at our neighborhood table, a player that is all in exposes his cards before the others have finished betting. His hand is ruled dead and he's out of the tourney. I get out of the chair and tell the tourney director to think about what he's doing, why the hell should this guy be eliminated and the drunk at my table get the pot when the situation at my table was worse then this one. Objection overruled again and play continiues.

3. How to react to the verbal attack from the drunk? (I decided not to answer anything he said to me and hope for him to be eliminated or my table to be splitted).


Luckily justice was victorious, 1hr later i knocked out the drunk from the tourney and managed to win the tourney, but I must say id like to know how you guys would have handled this situation. And if his hand should have been ruled dead.

4. Does this rule apply here? : Robert Ciaffones rules of poker section 15 tournaments 19. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player may not show any cards during a deal (unless the event has only two remaining players). If a player deliberately shows a card, that hand may be ruled dead and the player penalized.


I can probably add that i have spoken to the regular tourney director which has told me that action should have been taken and the hand ruled dead. This has been done to the same player 2 months ago..

[blackaces13]

I don't know the particular rules for tournys and I suspect they vary. However, IMO, in a heads up pot there is no reason that I can think of for a player not to be able to expose his cards. Its not a good idea but I don't see why it should make his hand dead? Anyone who flips his cards up is giving you an advantage, why would this upset you?

Players are responsible for protecting their own cards, he failed to do so. If he realized that someone saw his cards when he didn't want them to see them should his hand be dead then, how about the hand of the guy who saw his cards? If the answer is no then I don't think intent should have anything to do with it.

We've all heard famous stories of players exposing their cards in games. Jack Keller with the 72 and the paired board with a 7 and a 2 on it or whatever the story is asking the other player to pay him $25 to see one of his cards during the hand. There are also stories of players flippng up their AA in tournaments preflop after going all in to discourage a call.

As I see it, flipping up your cards is usually stupid for the player doing it, its the ultimate violation of the FTOP, so why would you complain about it? Was it bothering you to know his hand? I don't get that. If your opponent wants to be stupid, let him be stupid.

[daryn]

an exposed hand in a tourney incurs a penalty, that's all. the hand is NOT declared dead.

also, why would you care if he showed you his cards? i wish everyone would show me their cards, i would win the tournament.

[bernie]

Most tournies ive seen/read about the hand is declared dead if exposed during a hand. That's the universal penalty as ive read about and seen. But it depends on the cardrooms rule.

Personally, i dont care if they expose it. It only hurts them really. Except Im sure a collusion angle could be made for it though. So in that case, i agree. But rather than have a case by case basis, which could take forever, make it one or the other. A blanket rule. All exposed hands are dead.

As far as the bickering drunk, well that's just pure entertainment that breaks up the monotany of the game.

b

[daryn]

isn't there some kind of tourament directors association list of official rules? i remember seeing a list like that, and it clearly said that an exposed hand will not be declared dead, and some penalty will be handed out, like a time penalty or warning.

i'm not saying you haven't played in places where it was declared dead, but i think the above rule is "official".

[bernie]

I remember reading where they were trying to make a universal rulebook. Not sure if it went through. Though a cardroom can still use their own rules.

Swearing was the 'time out' penalty i remember. But not hand exposure. I could be wrong though. In my cardbarn, it's dead. I think in WPT it's dead, though someone may follow that more than i do. I remember many articles in cardplayer where they declared it dead, with a few that had a warning or something instead.

b

[Mufus]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
Anyone who flips his cards up is giving you an advantage, why would this upset you?


[/ QUOTE ]

My point excactly, but is it fair for the other players in the tourney that i should get such a huge edge? when 2 players is in a pot they wan't too se one guy eliminated but how is this gonna happen if people show eachother the cards? For these reasons I think Robert Ciaffones rule that if any player that deliberately shows a card, that hand may be ruled dead and the player penalized should apply here.

I can probably add that I have spoken to the regular tourney director and he has confirmed that in the future this rule will apply.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
I think in WPT it's dead, though someone may follow that more than i do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true I remember a situation in pro vs celebrity WPT tourney. Men 'the master' was playing a pot against Layne Flack and Men moved over to Layne and asked him what he had, Layne showed the cards to Men (im sure Layne was gonna fold anyway). Mike Sexton then commented that according to the rules the hand should be ruled dead, which it was.

[HDPM]

You overreacted. To continue to whine to the tournament director 15 min later was way overboard. You were playing with a drunk and had an edge over him. Live with it. Maybe in the future they will kill his hand. Maybe in the future he will remember how much you complained and play better against you. Maybe in the future he will nail you on a small infraction and throw a big fit about it since you were the rules maven this time. As far as the verbal attack, you had to expect it from a drunk after trying so hard to get the rule enforced. Take it down a notch IMO.

[LetsRock]

It depends on the tournament rules. IF the rules state that his hand is dead than the floor was wrong. If the rule doesn't exist, then take advantage of the edge he's giving you.

If it's heads up, there's really no disadvantage to you for him showing his cards. The only time this is really an issue is if others are still in the hand.

If you don't like the way the rules are written or the way they are enforced, don't play there - it's not your business to run the tourney.

Leave the drunk alone - let him have his fun. You'll get his money eventually (as you found out).

[Mufus]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
I decide to call for tourney director and he states that the hand should be ruled dead but the drunk didnt know it and from now on all exposed cards will be ruled dead...

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is:

1. Tourney director states that the hand should be ruled dead.

2. He says that the hand won't be ruled dead because the drunk didn't know about the rule.

Question: Is it not the players own responsibility to know what rules apply at each cardroom? Should a player not be penalized when he states that he didn't know about a rule?

Most of all I think that this case hurts the other players at the table.