Do You Call With QQ Here?

[CrisBrown]

Hi All,

Situation: Four players remaining, and you're the third stack. Short stack (Hall of Famer Chip Reese) pushes all-in UTG. Second stack folds on the button. You're in the SB, and you call the all-in -- about 1/3 of your stack -- with QQ. Big stack (considered by many to be one of the best NL players in the world) moves all-in from the BB. It's to you. Do you call with QQ?

This was the situation faced by the one amateur to make the final table in tonight's WPT broadcast. The amateur (I don't recall his name) got up to walk around and think about whether to call for all his chips, and the WPT went away for a commercial break.

This occasioned a discussion between my oldest son, my partner, and myself on whether he should call. I said he shouldn't call, because I didn't think the big stack would make this play with any hand other than AA, KK, or AK. So at best he's a small favorite, and possibly a huge underdog.

If it were a cash game, or early in a tourney, I'd be more tempted to call because it's more likely (4:3) that he's on AK rather than AA or KK, and with the short stack's all-in (most likely an A or a K), they probably hold some of each other's outs. So, on average, I'm a roughly 35% favorite to win this pot, getting 7:3 pot odds, which is clearly a call in a cash game, and probably also early in a tourney.

But at the final table, where most of the prize money is in the top three places, I can move up a spot just by folding and letting the big stack bust the small stack. I'll still have chips to play with (about 2/3rds of the second stack) and I can pick a better place to die than a small-favorite-big-dog spot like this.

Well, the amateur called. Short stack had K5s. Big stack had AKs. The amateur was a 50% favorite pre-flop, but the flop was A-K-6 and the river brought another Ace, so both 3rd and 4th stacks went out, leaving the big stack heads-up with a monster chip lead.

Second question: should the amateur have moved in with QQ to isolate? I doubt big stack would call in that spot with only AK. As it turned out, Chip Reese would have doubled up with the K on the flop, but I still think the amateur would have been wiser to push hoping to isolate rather than call and be put in a situation of calling himself all-in, in a 3-way pot, with only QQ.

Your thoughts?

Cris

P.S. I thought the amateur had played brilliantly up to this point, and I certainly don't mean to discredit him by referring him as "the amateur." He was a very skilled and talented player, who made some very strong plays.

P.P.S. It was sad to watch Chip Reese get run over in this final table. Every time he tried to get into a pot, someone repopped him, and he never had the right hand to make a stand. You could see the frustration in his face; he just never had a chance.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I said he shouldn't call, because I didn't think the big stack would make this play with any hand other than AA, KK, or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the flaw in your thinking. Top no-limit tournament players will make this play with many hands in order to isolate the all-in player. James showed weakness by just calling in the small blind. So, the Big Blind can make this play with many hands.

[TheArtist]

I agree. I mean if you knew the blinds was making an all-in -desperate move, and that he can have anything from small pair or weak ace to cards like K9-K5s, JQ to JTs. If you had AQ, AJs, JJ-99 and you thought SB was weak, wouln't u be incline to make this move too isolate? Since Barry is someone who is capable making this move with all sort of hands, I think it's an easy call. Morever, this is the best time to bust out the two players that is much better than he is on a gamble that he maybe be a favorite.

TheArtist

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the flaw in your thinking. Top no-limit tournament players will make this play with many hands in order to isolate the all-in player. James showed weakness by just calling in the small blind. So, the Big Blind can make this play with many hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

You guys can stop reading now....the above explains everything.

[ohkanada]

For most tourney players, the only way you are just calling for 1/3 of your stack is AA and maybe KK. You are hoping the BB finds a hand and either calls or goes all-in.

So when you are in the BB, you do need a big hand to make that re-raise all-in. Of course if the BB really feels SB is weak then maybe the BB can lower his hands but not by much.

Ken Poklitar

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
For most tourney players, the only way you are just calling for 1/3 of your stack is AA and maybe KK. You are hoping the BB finds a hand and either calls or goes all-in.

So when you are in the BB, you do need a big hand to make that re-raise all-in. Of course if the BB really feels SB is weak then maybe the BB can lower his hands but not by much.

Ken Poklitar



[/ QUOTE ]

Full table, I agree...but it's 4 handed. QQ is a monster.

[J.R.]

And these aren't most tourney players, but barry greenstein comming over the top of a retired car wash owner from ohio playing well above his comfort zone who has demonstarted a tendancy to play meekly preflop in a 4 handed game. I think Barry can have a lot of hands here.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
And these aren't most tourney players, but barry greenstein comming over the top of a retired car wash owner from ohio playing well above his comfort zone who has demonstarted a tendancy to play meekly preflop in a 4 handed game. I think Barry can have a lot of hands here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you're talking about the JJ hand...it was 5 handed, but that doesn't make much difference.

It's hard to say, because we have such incomplete information. These guys have been playing together for 4 days. We get to see a small sample of the hands. For all we know, Mr. Meek Preflop retired car wash owner could have been raising every hand.
I don't know if you saw the episode a couple of weeks ago with Dewey Tomko and Paul Phillips heads up. Paul had Tomko outchipped by about 10:1 or so. The producers showed about 7 or 8 hands in a row where Dewey went all in preflop. They made it seem like he was pushing on every hand.
I read in Paul Phillips' poker journal that it wasn't the case at all. In fact he was pushing with less than half of his hands heads up.
All I'm saying is that there are many other factors that we don't know that would be pertinant to the arguments one way or the other.
I understand your point about reducing variance and the importance of winning pots late in a tourney. I think there definitely is an argument for raising JJ in that spot. I'm just saying that smooth calling can be a good changing gears play.
Given the call, and the subsequent raise by Barry...I like the call to see the flop before committing too many chips on JJ. Like you said...survival.

[sweetjazz]

If the BB is only going to reraise all-in with a big hand, then I'm going to call the short stack with all of my hands that I would otherwise raise all-in to shut out the BB. Now I get to fold many of BB's hands that beat me without risking all my chips.

And since Barry was going to end up all-in with AA or KK no matter what James did initially, I love his play. He got in with the best of it, and gave himself the best chance to win the tournament (which is no doubt what he wanted). His play also maximized EV given how much the first prize was and the fact that Randy Jensen still had a significant stack at that point.

[Whistler]

Heres my take...if i was at the table, I call his all-in, because of the fact that the all-in is 1/3 of my stack, I would figure that Greenstien would know that I am pot commited and threrefore putting me on a fairly big hand. If he pushes I fold because I know I am up against AK AA/KK. Greenstein wouldnt push with a lesser hand imo, in THAT particular situation.