Flopped set vs. possible straight

dana33 · #1 04-16-2004, 07:03 PM

They say that if you lose a pot with a flopped set and don't lose a lot of money, you didn't play it right. I welcome any comments on how I played this one.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players) 
SB bets, BB calls, Hero raises, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls, Hero caps, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (14 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players) 
BB bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP3 raises, Button 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP3 caps, Button calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (34 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players) 
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, Button raises, BB folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 40 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero shows 7d 7c (three of a kind, sevens).
MP3 shows 6s Jc (two pair, jacks and sixes).
Button shows 9d Tc (straight, jack high).
Outcome: Button wins 40 BB.

Nemesis · #2 04-16-2004, 08:15 PM

that's generally true, but i think i would have gotten out on the flop or more likely the turn. With two different people raising/reraising/capping... i'd get out, odds are one or both have the straight... at least in my mind.

adanthar · #3 04-16-2004, 11:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
that's generally true, but i think i would have gotten out on the flop or more likely the turn. With two different people raising/reraising/capping... i'd get out, odds are one or both have the straight... at least in my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]Folding on the turn is horrible. You have 10 outs to make your full house on the river.

However, on that board with the button raising all the way it's probably safe to fold the river.

sin808 · #4 04-16-2004, 11:40 PM

I probably wouldn't have capped on the flop, but that's probably just me.

Most likely would have folded the river. I'd guess someone would have made a straight, especially with the raise in front of you...I get burned by those kinds of hands alot too though, so I tend to get more conservative with them when the board has a 3 straight/flush draw like that and there's alot of action.

Vehn · #5 04-17-2004, 01:03 AM

Fold on the river. Do they need to hold up a sign with "I have the nuts" on it? Rest of hand is fine.

dana33 · #6 04-17-2004, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold on the river. Do they need to hold up a sign with "I have the nuts" on it? Rest of hand is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a higher limit table, I might agree. But on the micro tables, I have seen this sort of aggressive raising between people with a mere two pair (or worse!) -- and have previously laid down the best hand in the face of it. The pot is giving me 19:1 odds on my call (assuming no further raising -- admittedly a risk), so I figured I just couldn't lay it down at that point. I just need to win 1 out of 20 times in the same situation to break even.

blackaces13 · #7 04-17-2004, 02:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think i would have gotten out on the flop or more likely the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nemesis this is crazy. I think maybe you misread the hand or something but hero has flopped a set. If you really would fold the flop on this hand it is an absurd play and you need to stop making it immediately. It is 100% indefensible to EVER fold a set on the flop or the turn in a micro limit game.

Nemesis · #8 04-17-2004, 03:24 PM

ok i'm rightly chastised. With that kind of betting from 2 different people though doesn't it indicate that SOMEBODY has hit it?

bakku · #9 04-17-2004, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ok i'm rightly chastised. With that kind of betting from 2 different people though doesn't it indicate that SOMEBODY has hit it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you are 100% sure someone has the straight, you have to see the river! You have 10 outs to make your full house or quads and are definitely getting the odds to chase. Actually, I just make it a general rule to never fold a set unless it is very very obvious I'm beat on the river.

adanthar · #10 04-17-2004, 07:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok i'm rightly chastised. With that kind of betting from 2 different people though doesn't it indicate that SOMEBODY has hit it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if you are 100% sure someone has the straight, you have to see the river! You have 10 outs to make your full house or quads and are definitely getting the odds to chase. Actually, I just make it a general rule to never fold a set unless it is very very obvious I'm beat on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]This is the one and only set that I have ever laid down on the turn:
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO 3-bets, Button folds, SB caps, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (21 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players) 
SB bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO caps, SB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (18.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players) 
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls, CO raises, SB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero folds, CO calls $4.50 (All-In).

River: (28.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in) 
SB bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 30.25 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG shows Kh Kc (one pair, kings).
CO shows Jc Js (three of a kind, jacks).
SB shows Qc Qd (straight, queen high).
Outcome: SB wins 30.25 BB. 

The reason I posted this here? If you had people doing this AND the board looked like that AND you were 99.9% sure you were drawing to one out you MIGHT be justified to fold a set in that situation.

In fact, had the JJ player had more money he'd almost certainly be right to call on the river.