Live 2-4, couple of AQ hands

[mauisupaman]

Here are a couple of AQ hands from our Tues night 2-4 game:

1. EP limps, I (~200) make it $20 to go with AQo, all fold. BB (~$150) and EP (~$200) call.

Flop - J6J
Checked to me, I bet $50. BB calls, EP folds.

Turn - 3
BB bets all in $75 I fold.

2. 2 limpers to me in MP, I ($150) make it $20 with AQo no clubs. SB ($300) and weak tight ($200) on my right call.

Flop 9JT[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Checked through

Turn 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Checked through

River 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Weak tight bets $30, I call, SB folds. Weak tight shows the nut straight with no clubs.

3. This is a hand my friend played. EP limps, Hero limps with AQo, 2 limper behind, BB checks.

Flop A9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Checked to Hero ($200) who bets $30 all fold. Only BB ($200) calls cold

Turn 5
Hero bets $30, BB calls.

River 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BB goes all in, Hero thinks for awhile and folds. BB shows K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

4. Here's my favorite. 1 EP limper, Weak tight from hand #2 makes it $15 straight. I fold 63o. LP calls, BB calls, EP calls.

Flop AK6
Weak tight ($200) bets $10, LP ($400) raises to $50. Only weaky calls.

Turn J
Checked to LP who bets $100, weak folds. LP shows A7o. Weak claims he had AQo

Comments?
Thanks in advance

[M2d]

Let me preface my answers by saying that I don't think my NL game is all that great.

1) First of all, I think 20 to go in a 2-4 blind game with ~200 stacks is a huge preflop bet. With your stack sizes, betting this much removes much of the leverage you hold if you want to make a move later on. Here, you large bet preflop forces you to commit an even larger portion of your stack on the flop with a marginal hand.
In limit or NL, one of my considerations for post flop play is based on my read of the players and my estimation of what they'll come along with (duh). In this case, what hands with a jack in it would your opponents have called with? If they're loose enough (or it's standard practice in this game) to call with hands like AJ, KJs, QJs, etc, then you definately should slow down a bit. Against tighter players (and with a smaller bet preflop, hence a smaller pot to compete for), I think the flop bet is a good idea to see if you can chase them out.

2) With two limpers to you, I think you just want to see a flop with AQoff. maybe the raise is good if you think the limpers are sheep and will obediently fold post flop (or to your bet), but AQ isn't that strong. Same comments apply as above about the bet sizes.
The turn may present an opportunity to make a small exploratory bet. I don't think it has to be that big, as, having raised up front, you're likely either blowing smoke or betting a large single club. This also probably eliminates the decision you have to make on the river when faced with a bet.
The river call is player dependant, of course. Nice call, in this case.

3) again, bet size makes this play difficult. Except for going all in, hero has a tough time putting enough pressure on too make the drawing hands fold (or at least make incorrect calls). smaller bets up front will give draws the wrong odds to draw and risk less for hero.

4)Unless LP would cold call only with AK and pocket pairs (I'm just guessing, but are people likely to come over the top with these types of hands in your game?), I think weak tight should have moved on him on the flop. This is especially true if LP's known to make moves with no kicker hands. The pot seems pretty large, relative to stack sizes, already, and taking it down now or having the opponet drawing slim is a good place to be.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
Comments?


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yes, lots. AQ is a hand that you want to play a small pot with after you hit top pair with a good kicker. you want your opponents to play against hands like QJ,AJ,AT against you and assume that they are good. how does raising accomplish this?

what is going to happen sometimes is someone with AK is going to call you, and you'll hit an A and then bet off your whole stack.

in hand #1, I don't like betting with overcards onto a paired board. what if you get called and then hit on the turn? your are pot sticking yourself here, and for no reason other than folding equity. usually not a good enough reason.

--turnipmonster

[mauisupaman]

M2d,
Let me preface my response by saying I'm not a great poker player in general, limit, no limit, and whatever game. A typical raise in this game was $20-50 with no lack of action. I never play AQo, but I thought I might experiment last night. Anyway, so I figured I pop in for $20 to try and cut down the field and then make a stab at it on the flop. And I came in for $20 just b/c that was my standard raise, but it looks like you're advocating playing a small pot with AQo and perhaps even limping in after a few callers. I see how the big raise preflop gets me into trouble. OK, I'll limp next time.

[M2d]

again for the cheap seats, I'm not that confident with my big bet game, so don't take what I say as gospel.
I think you still want to charge the other players for playing against your superior hands. A lot depends on what you think they'll do against a smaller than normal raise. if they'll come over the top with a weak hand because they think you'll lay down right there, then maybe a small raise/push in is the answer. If they'll play the same as always (same hands will just call), then making smaller preflop raises might be the answer. It just seems like there's no hesitancy to make/call pretty big preflop bets, but a big reluctance to move the chips later in the hand. what happens is an agreement to create a large starting pot, but an almost limit like play of the hand the rest of the way. part of the appeal of big bet (I think) is that you can adjust the odds your opponent is getting from the pot. By making the pot so big (relative to stack sizes), you take this bullet out of your gun.

[mauisupaman]

Alright, alright. AQo small pots, no raise. And I should've checked the flop with a paired board and overcards. But what if a check it through and hit an out? Bet and fold to a CR, fold to a big bet?

[ZeroGee]

This is very good analysis, and a very important point. Good job turnipmonster.

[PuppetMaster]

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Alright, alright. AQo small pots, no raise. And I should've checked the flop with a paired board and overcards. But what if a check it through and hit an out? Bet and fold to a CR, fold to a big bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
If you had TT or QQ would you check that JJx flop? Hell no.
So you played it right by representing a hand different than AQ. Dont listen to the weak tights.

[turnipmonster]

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Alright, alright. AQo small pots, no raise. And I should've checked the flop with a paired board and overcards. But what if a check it through and hit an out? Bet and fold to a CR, fold to a big bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would bet the turn, and then fold to a big bet on the river. probably pay off a small bet on the river, fold to a large one. I wouldn't have as big a problem with your play if you had a deeper stack, but you only have 200. you're commiting almost half of it without a hand by betting large on the flop.

2 AQ hands from my PL game I just got back from (I wasn't involved in either)

button (tight, very solid) raises one limper, SB calls. flop comes Q33. SB check calls the whole way with AQ and gets shown KK, which cost him half his stack.

LAG in EP raises, gets called on the button. flop comes A rag rag, EP check raises and then gets all in on the turn, for about a 2k pot. button thinks forever and finally calls, with AK. LAG shows AQs. button comments he almost folded AK.

great game, right? in both cases the AQ players committed a lot of their stack by building a pot with a mediocre hand out of position.

--turnipmonster