Zee's H/LSPFAP O/8 playing preflop guidance

[Jay]

It was recommeded I post this msg here instead of in Books/Software so here it is...

Recently I've been bitten by the O/8 bug and decided to do some more research on this game. I picked up Zee's H/L Split Poker For Advanced Players and read other articles by reputable sources and found quite a few differences of opinion concerning starting hand values and preflop raising. I'm especially interesed in loose lower limit ($10-20 or less) O/8 games and the following advice I believe is slated towards these games.

Basically Zee stresses playing tight gets you the money. “When playing low limit O/8 if you are simply the tightest player both before and on the flop you have a significant edge.” I assume this means selective?

However he goes on to say the that most hands are not that dissimilar in value before the flop and that raising pre-flop does not add significantly to your advantage which contradicts advice that one should raise with better hands preflop and that starting hands do vary tremendously. I quote the following from Zee's book:

“Concept 7: …Most of the preflop raising in this game is done strictly to knock out players behind you, that is, the buy the button. Raising before the flop to get more money in the pot is normally not the best strategy…

Concept 9: A lot of raising before the flop adds marginally to your profits, but add tremendously to your fluctuations. This should be obvious, as many hands are not that dissimilar in value.

Concept 10: When you start jamming early, you add only a little bit to your edge, unless some terrible players are in the pot. There is a great deal of luck between your starting hand and the flop in O/8, especially if other players in the pot might be playing a hand similar to what you hold.”


However there are sources that stress the opposite. I quote the following from a reputable source (Steve Badger):

“Omaha Poker Strategy – Introduction to Omaha Holdem Strategy. Starting hands exist before the flop, which is where you get enormous edges in Omaha against a field… …Omaha has a fairly large group of hands that will win at double the rate of randomish hands. Only playing good starting hands and raising before the flop with many of them, is the basics of winning in loose-game, low to middle limit Omaha[/8].

…The thing to “loosen up” in such a game [referring to a loose game] is to want to play for a raise most hands you play. In tight games, calling when someone limps in front of you is often the right play. In a loose game, raising is usually the correct play because you are playing a hand with the way best of it.

Omaha Myths - Myth “Omaha Starting hands Run Close Together in Value” This is the silliest myth of them all, especially when it comes to real game conditions.

Myth “Don’t Raise before the flop” In most Omaha/8 games a critical and basic concept is to get more money in before the flop when you have the way best of it. The most obvious profit in O/8 comes from opponents calling on the turn when drawing dead. This happens reasonably often but the profit that occurs every single hand, the most common way to create a profitable edge is to exploit the dramatically different pre-flop value of O/8 starting hands. …If a huge part of O/8 is starting hands, then aggressively betting your hands before the flop should be an obvious conclusion (with some exceptions depending on the situation).”

I don't wish to create conflict although this board has seen its share of them. I simply want some guidance as it is apparent to me there are some differences of opinion on starting hand values and raising pre-flop. Who am I to disagree with Zee, but I feel that it is to my advantage to get more money in the pot pre-flop, exploiting a larger edge with better starting hands that will be much better than my opponents and getting the best of it. Maybe I'm missing Zee's point - I don't know. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Jay

[Andy B]

I didn't recommend that you re-post here. I just said that Buzz would write a book for you. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Ray Zee]

alot of people just play their cards only. so making the pot bigger with good hands may work for them. i advocate outplaying your opponents on all streets. and by making the pot bigger early you dont always get to outplay someone as you turn them correctly into a caller. this doesnt apply to all hands but you should see this point. if you cant outplay your opponents after the flop than you should get all you can in early to get what ever edge is offered to you.
also with the very good hands you should raise for value. i dont dispute that. and i qualified that with the addition of bad players in with you. all of my context must be considered not just line by line of what i write.
but when raising my point is to raise mostly for other reasons than just having what looks like a good hand to get more money in.
and hands do run closer in value before the flop in this game. it stands to reason.

[Buzz]

Jay - I won’t quite write a book, but my posts do tend to be longies. There’s a lot of stuff already in the archives of both 2+2 and r.g.p. on this topic.

Badger used to post on this forum but doesn't anymore. As a result, it seems improper for me to express what I think he means here - or to quote him here.

There are a number of reasons why different authors have different slants on the issue of pre-flop raises in Omaha-8 games. I think much of the difference has to do with the natural style of play of each author.

Another reason for the variation in points of view of different authors has to do with the author’s observations. People see different play in different localities and at different limits - and even when the watch the same identical thing, they have different perceptions of it.

It’s a bit like looking at different paintings of the same locale, painted by different artists from different vantage points.

What works well for some authors, alas, does not always work for me. How well any certain strategy or tactic works for me depends on the opponents I’m facing -and also on how well I’m doing.

There might have been a time when all you needed to do was play more tightly than your opponents to be a winner - and there surely still are games where that is true. Even when merely playing more tightly than your opponents is not enough to make you a winner, "play tight" still seems like good advice, especially for beginners - at least you lose less while you learn. Most authors of Omaha-8 books or web sites stress playing tightly, especially on the first two betting rounds.

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However he goes on to say the that most hands are not that dissimilar in value before the flop and that raising pre-flop does not add significantly to your advantage which contradicts advice that one should raise with better hands preflop and that starting hands do vary tremendously.

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At a typical full, loose table, some starting hands have much better prospects for success than others. I don’t think anyone disputes that fact. However, when played heads-up, except for some notable exceptions, most voluntarily playable starting hands are not very dissimilar in value. I'm not counting clearly unplayable hands like 9s9h9d9c or even three legged rainbows like QsTh9d2c as voluntarily playable starting hands.

Raising before the flop always greatly increases your fluctuations. I don’t think anyone disputes that fact either. Whether or not it adds to or takes away from your advantage, in my humble opinion, is very dependent on your position and your opponents - and maybe on your style of play.

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... I feel that it is to my advantage to get more money in the pot pre-flop, exploiting a larger edge with better starting hands that will be much better than my opponents and getting the best of it....

[/ QUOTE ]

Then by all means, raise before the flop. Alas, that doesn’t always work well for me (but sometimes it does).

I love to play against opponents who raise before the flop, as long as they also play too many hands, in which case it’s just a matter of waiting my turn to pick them off.

However, when they don’t play too many hands, pre-flop raisers are tougher opponents, especially when their pre-flop raises do not telegraph their cards. I don’t want to be in a game full or tight, aggressive opponents. (You probably shouldn’t either).

Thus if you were playing against me, you'd be a tougher opponent if you played selectively and often raised before the flop. From that standpoint it would seem worthwhile for you to often raise before the flop.

A negative aspect of often raising before the flop is doing so often tends to turn the game into a tighter game.

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Maybe I'm missing Zee's point

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I don’t think you missed his point as much as you disagreed with it. But you might not disagree if you took it fully in context, as part of an integrated approach.

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Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

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Why not try pre-flop raises and see how they work for you. If they work, and it sounds to me like they do, then great. If you ever get into a game where they don't seem to work well, then back off. That seems too obvious, but maybe you haven't thought about it. Some tactics work well against certain opponents and not as well against others. "Different strokes for different folks."

But bear in mind that you must also consider what effect the pre-flop raise has on future betting rounds. It's nice to get two small bets out of an opponent on the first betting round, but it's nicer to get one small bet out of an opponent on the first betting round plus another small bet or two on the second betting round plus a big bet or two on the third and fourth betting rounds - and by doing that, you also save a small bet when you miss the flop. And there is also the looseness/tightness factor to consider.

You might try to deal with your opponents as individuals. They’re all a bit different, which makes dealing with them as individuals very complicated - and therefore not for everyone.

When your pre-flop raises accomplish what you want them to accomplish, then they seem a good tactic.

When you raise simply to get more money in the pot because you have a nice starting hand, I think you want to be reasonably sure that the quotient of the money your opponents put in the pot divided by the money you put into the pot is greater than the odds against your ending up scooping the pot (or the equivalent of scooping the pot).

That's just my opinion.

Buzz

[chaos]

Some other points on raising:

There are many flops that miss even a good hand, so raising preflop does increase fluctuation. There are no Omaha/8 hands like AA or KK in Hold’em that will usually dominate most hands regardless of the flop. Thus I raise much less in Omaha/8 than I do in Hold’em.

I usually do not raise from early or middle position. I find it more profitable to wait until later in the hand to reveal the strength of my hand. I do not want to encourage the loose players to tighten up; I want the weak players in there building a nice pot.

I will be more inclined to raise from late position to eliminate players behind me so that I can act last on future betting rounds.

If you adopt raising preflop as part of your arsenal, you have to be careful that raising does not give away too much information. If you only raise with AA2x your more astute opponents may be able to outplay you based on this knowledge. If you are going to be raising, you need to raise with a variety of good hands.

You need to figure out what works for you based on your opponents, the texture of the game, your position, and how people react to your raises. In the games I play in (5/10 up to 10/20 w/ or w/o a kill), I typically do not do too much raising.

[Andy B]

Buzz,

You didn't disappoint. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[jedi]

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alot of people just play their cards only. so making the pot bigger with good hands may work for them. i advocate outplaying your opponents on all streets. and by making the pot bigger early you dont always get to outplay someone as you turn them correctly into a caller.

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Here's a question: I'm one of those players who mostly plays only my cards, and not the player. Some literature advocates stuff like raising with the 3rd nut low in order to fold out the 2nd nut low. Unfortunately, I've found that in my loose games this rarely happens. Everyone sticks around with their lows and their straights (even on a flush possible, paired board) so that I can't do anything other than play the nuts or the nut draws. Given the loose nature of the games I play in, how can I "outplay" my opponents? I'm not even sure what "outplay" means in the context of Omaha/8. So far, I'm just sticking to the advice of play tight and hit the nuts, and it's been working for me, although I've folded the eventual winner many a time.

[Baulucky]

Where/what site are you playing jedi?

[Andy B]

Generally, when people refer to "outplaying" an opponent, they're talking about getting him to fold when he shouldn't, or at least when he wouldn't if he knew what you had, i.e, make a Fundamental Theorem error. This may seem obvious, but if you can't get someone out by raising, don't raise for that reason. In the specific case you cite, yes, it is sometimes correct to raise with the third-nut hand if it will get the second-nut hand to fold. If the other guy isn't folding, though, don't raise--fold!

In a low-limit O/8 game, you should tend to play your cards rather than your opponents. It is pointless to engage in psychological warfare with oblivious opponents.

If you're playing at all properly, you're going to be folding a significant number of hands that would have won.

[jedi]

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Where/what site are you playing jedi?

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Just about everywhere. Party, UB, Paradise all have fairly loose Omaha games, as far as I can see. Poker Stars is really the only place where I don't play Omaha. Even at the local B&M casino, when guys flash their cards to me (if I'm out of a hand). They play loads of crap and chase draws that I wouldn't chase. If I do find myself in a tight Omaha game, I'm usually getting out of it quickly.