Zee's H/LSPFAP Guidance on preflop play

[Jay]

Recently I've been bitten by the O/8 bug and decided to do some more research on this game. I picked up Zee's H/L Split Poker For Advanced Players and read other articles by reputable sources and found quite a few differences of opinion concerning starting hand values and preflop raising. I'm especially interesed in loose lower limit ($10-20 or less) O/8 games and the following advice I believe is slated towards these games.

Basically Zee stresses playing tight gets you the money. “When playing low limit O/8 if you are simply the tightest player both before and on the flop you have a significant edge.” I assume this means selective?

However he goes on to say the that most hands are not that dissimilar in value before the flop and that raising pre-flop does not add significantly to your advantage which contradicts advice that one should raise with better hands preflop and that starting hands do vary tremendously. I quote the following from Zee's book:

“Concept 7: …Most of the preflop raising in this game is done strictly to knock out players behind you, that is, the buy the button. Raising before the flop to get more money in the pot is normally not the best strategy…

Concept 9: A lot of raising before the flop adds marginally to your profits, but add tremendously to your fluctuations. This should be obvious, as many hands are not that dissimilar in value.

Concept 10: When you start jamming early, you add only a little bit to your edge, unless some terrible players are in the pot. There is a great deal of luck between your starting hand and the flop in O/8, especially if other players in the pot might be playing a hand similar to what you hold.”


However there are sources that stress the opposite. I quote the following from a reputable source (Steve Badger):

“Omaha Poker Strategy – Introduction to Omaha Holdem Strategy. Starting hands exist before the flop, which is where you get enormous edges in Omaha against a field… …Omaha has a fairly large group of hands that will win at double the rate of randomish hands. Only playing good starting hands and raising before the flop with many of them, is the basics of winning in loose-game, low to middle limit Omaha[/8].

…The thing to “loosen up” in such a game [referring to a loose game] is to want to play for a raise most hands you play. In tight games, calling when someone limps in front of you is often the right play. In a loose game, raising is usually the correct play because you are playing a hand with the way best of it.

Omaha Myths - Myth “Omaha Starting hands Run Close Together in Value” This is the silliest myth of them all, especially when it comes to real game conditions.

Myth “Don’t Raise before the flop” In most Omaha/8 games a critical and basic concept is to get more money in before the flop when you have the way best of it. The most obvious profit in O/8 comes from opponents calling on the turn when drawing dead. This happens reasonably often but the profit that occurs every single hand, the most common way to create a profitable edge is to exploit the dramatically different pre-flop value of O/8 starting hands. …If a huge part of O/8 is starting hands, then aggressively betting your hands before the flop should be an obvious conclusion (with some exceptions depending on the situation).”

I don't wish to create conflict although this board has seen its share of them. I simply want some guidance as it is apparent to me there are some differences of opinion on starting hand values and raising pre-flop. Who am I to disagree with Zee, but I feel that it is to my advantage to get more money in the pot pre-flop, exploiting a larger edge with better starting hands that will be much better than my opponents and getting the best of it. Maybe I'm missing Zee's point - I don't know. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Jay

[Nottom]

I think it comes down to what is considered a "huge edge" preflop.

I mean if I take the best possible O/8 hand AA23d and run it against 4 random cards (generated from a deck of cards in front of me) - JsTh7h4c, a hand which most would agree is trash I get ...

pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 as ac 2s 3c - 7h js th 4c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 2s Ac 3c 261536 291892 208108 0 231725 7687 83 0.655
Js 4c Th 7h 106799 208108 291892 0 37623 109421 83 0.345

Sure there is an significant edge there, but its nowhere close to what you will have with AA in hold'em.

[Andy B]

O/8 hands do run very close together in value. Assuming that your opponents are at all selective, a given hand is rarely going to be more than a 3:2 favorite against any other hand. Compare this to hold'em, where pairs are often more than 4:1 favorites, or stud, where a rolled-up set will be a huge favorite over even very good starting hands. The weaker O/8 hands can get trapped for many bets on later streets, though, so they can become big money losers. There is money to be made on nut hands and nut draws. There is a lot of money to be lost playing non-nut hands and non-nut draws. Your edge before the flop is usually pretty small, and it's still frequently small on the flop. By the turn, however, your edge can become quite large, and if there's only one street you can raise on, it might as well be an expensive one, right? (Obviously, you're allowed to raise on other streets.) On the river, you'll have lost some of your customers, because their draws have missed. So the turn is quite often the best time to jam.

Post this in the "Other Poker" forum and Buzz will write you a book.

[Jay]