Newbie seeks advice on where to turn from here....

[FlashFunk]

I've been lurking these forums for about a month or so, but this is my first post. I am seeking wisdom from you experts that may have been down my road before me.

Heres a little background info on myself and my poker experience. I began playing hold'em around 6 months or so ago with friends. Beginning with just friendly games or games with a buy-in of $20 or so. I've always placed pretty well in these so I decided to check out the world of online poker. Started by playing the play-money sites to get the hang of it. Then I decided to get more serious about poker and bought WLLH and bought-in my first $50 at party poker.

I played the $5+1 NL tournaments (ya i know 20% of your buy-in going to the house isn't really cost effective, but with my bankroll i dont think i could afford to hop up to the 10+1). Anyway I had my ups and downs in here, placing first in maybe 1/4 tournaments I played in. Just enough to keep my bankroll about even at my $50 buyin.

However moving to ring games was a total disater for me. I played about half my money in the NL .50 blind $25 buyin rooms and the other half in the .50/1 rooms. Needless to say all my money eventually dwindled away.

I dont think I'm a bad player but I also know im not a great player. I do however know im a better player then 80% of the people I see at these lower limit tables. I was wondering if maybe it was because my initial bankroll was not high enough to support the variation of the game. But these are also the lowest limit games available at party poker.

I am a college student (without parent backed funds) that can afford maybe $40 a month to put into my so far failing poker career. I've read WLLH twice and am looking into getting HEFAP.

So what I'm looking for is where I should go from here?

-Should I play limit or no-limit?
-Should I join a poker site with smaller tables?
-Should I read up more before attempting to move on?
-Should I give up poker until I am outta college and have a full-time job with more funds (doubtful due to my love of the game)?

Oh wise 2+2'ers guide me to greatness. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[dansalmo]

Please seriously consider limiting your time playing poker to where it will not have any impact on you finacially or on your study time. You will have far more time and opportunity to learn to play poker in your life than you will have to do well in college.

99% of my play is high limit B&M poker, so I can not give you advice about improving your NL play, but I can say WLLH will not prepare you for NL games. Even small ones. In fact, no single book will prepare you for any game.

Also, ring and tournament strategies are different. I suggest you start by mastering low limit ring games. If you want to do it with the least risk, stick with play money until you can beat it easily over thoudands of hands, not just until getting the hang of it.

I suggest getting Theory of Poker, HEFAP, All of the Poker Essay books, and Sklansky on Poker. The books are way cheaper than trying to learn by playing, even .05/.10.

[FlashFunk]

I see where you are coming from. I should make it a little more clear that I'm not worried about my college career suffering. I have one more year to complete my double degree in accounting/economics and have had plenty more addicting distractions to deal with in the past and have maintained a relatively high GPA.

What im trying to balance is my money supply with my inclinations toward improving my poker game.

My concerns are that playing play-money games wont help me at all since everyone knows its play-money and they bet accordingly. Another concern I have is that if i spend this money to buy books I will have the books to read, but no real money to use in rooms as I read them and wanna test what I have learned.

[LetsRock]

With your small BR, I'd suggest trying to take on the micro limit games. It'll take a while to grow your BR, but it will usually grow if you have half a clue.

$50 is not enough BR to cover the natural variance of even .50/1. A couple of bad sesions and your busted. It doesn't matter if you CAN play better than most of the people you see - poker is still a game of luck (as much as we like to believe other wise) and you will have times when you just can't drag a pot if your life depended on it. That's why it's so important to have a big enough BR.

If you're trying to apply limit advice to a NL game, you're asking for trouble. They really are 2 completely different games. If you prefer to play NL, then get some books that apply directly to NL (sorry, I can't recommend one). I'm a grinder (limit) and occassionally play in a NL game and consantly find myself making limit moves that are brutal mistakes in a NL game. (There was one hand that stuck in my head for 3 weeks trying to figure out how I should have played it vs. how I did.)

Spend lots of time at the micro limits - build your BR until you can move up to the next (300 BB of the next level is considered to be the correct amount). This will give you lots of play time between promotions and you'll learn more than you think. Don't get impatient to move up too fast. It could be disasterous to your BR.

Read HEPFAP and TOP until the covers fall off. Then read them again. While most of the book won't help much at low limits, it gives you a solid base and you'll recognize many situations that you read about.

Don't forget to visit this place often, There's a lot of good stuff here (sometimes you have to dodge a little nonsense to get to it) that can help you grow much faster than if you try to do it all alone. And post some hands that give you trouble to see if you could have approached it differently.

Welcome.

[dansalmo]

I learned by playing in online play money games for a year and reading many books before ever playing for real. Even though they are not as tough as real games, they are still great for learning. You can test a lot of what you learn in them. Until you can beat the free games, you will almost cetainly be doner in even a low limit money game.

[SirArthur]

Hey Flash...

Party is awful for beginners with only a $50 Bankroll.
The reason for this is the rake is so high, and they have no micro/micro tables. You should be pleased you lasted as long as you did with your intial deposit.

I highly recommend that your next venture be at a site like Poker Stars, where you can get lots of practice at their micro NL games. They have .01/.02 games (NL ring) there (may $2 buy in), and .10/.25 NL.
You can get a ton of playing experience for cheap at these levels. Then move up only after you have beaten these levels for quite some time.
This is what I did, and now I'm playing the .50/1.00 blinds (NL $100 max buy in games at Poker Stars) and doing quite well.

I've read WLLHE, and HEPFAP, and these books will not prepare you for the crazy world of NL, only experience will.
If you really do want to read some on NL, try the NL section in Super System, or the Pot/No Limit book by Ciaffone. However, these books don't really apply to the online Micro NL games, but are geared more towards high rolling games.

[Chief911]

Hey,

I'm in a similar situation to you. Here's a bit of advice from someone about 3 months further along than you.

Play the .5/1 ring games. I prefer the NL games, but at the $5, $10, and even the $20 games, there are so many "bad bets" that a couple of maniacs can take you out. So even if you are a better NL player, it seems like its harder to maintain and build a BR playing those.

Play the .5/$1 games (I prefer two windows) and just play solid hands and in position. When I do that with discipline, I rarely end up losing. Because you pay out rarely, and there are usually people limping all the way to the river with crap that'll pay you off.

The best thing I've done in the last month is starting to play aggressively with good hands (again, when in position). Raises preflop, on 4th, and on 5th have been big successes for me in that I probably have a 20% rate of people folding to me on 4th and 5th after calling the whole way. While that isn't a great payout, many people will give up a $9 or $10 pot on 4th or 5th after calling the whole way.

Take it with a grain of salt, because I'm still very green. But playing aggressive with good hands, and being able to fold anything that's not great has made me good $$.

And playing two windows for me allows me to be more patient, instead of feeling like I'm waiting hours between hands I play.

Good luck,

Chief

[FlashFunk]

I like everyones advice so far. I was looking into poker stars before and i may give that a shot.

I really stuck on whether or not to play NL or limit. I started with NL and thats what i tend to be good at. Im thinking part of the reason i dont have success in limit is because I am playing way too tight in my limit games, and not aggresively enough when i do play.

Why do some of you play NL while others limit?
What helped you make your decision?
Which one has more consistent profit in the long run or are the about equal?

[buhler26]

Hey Flash,
I'm about a few months ahead of you, but pretty much in the same place. I started with $25 at UltimateBet. I started at the .01/.02 limit tables, until I felt like I could beat the .25/.50 games, then I moved up to that. I primarily still play those tables.

I experimented with playing cash no-limit games, but found that is very hard to build any kind of bankroll there. It takes a lot of upfront cash to beat a no-limit cash game in the long run.

I still play cheap no-limit tourneys, cuz I think they are fun. They haven't shown me a lot of profit yet, but I'm hoping to get better at those (reading Sklansky's Tournament Poker book).

But primarily, I play the .25/.50 limit tables to build my online bankroll. I'm at about $100 currently, and I would like to get up to $150 before I tackle the .50/1 tables. My plan is to get 300 big bets of limit game, before I consider moving up to the next level. Otherwise, a run of bad luck could run your bankroll dry. I hope this helps.

[LikesToLose]

Hi FlashFunk:

I would get a book with the best starting hand chart you can find. I never looked at WLLH, but the charts in HEP and HEFAP are a bit vague. It assumes that you have some knowledge that you do not yet possess. My biggest problem with Mason and Sklansky is that they do not write at a basic enough level for beginners (which isn't a real problem).

Go to a bookstore and browse through the books until you find a single chart that lists exactly what to do. This will not be the best advice possible since there are a lot of situations not accounted for, but the advice will be much more straight forward and you will make more correct decisions than using S&M's books for now.

I have a specific recommendation and it is free with an affiliate link. It is advertised on this site with a guy in a beach chair, but since it is not a 2+2 author, I will not mention it [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

If you are/were accurately following the starting hand charts you would not have lost your money in the $.50/$1.00 Limit party tables. (Well 99% sure). Use a simpler chart, deposit another $50 and play 20,000 hands and you should be OK.

Then move on to S&M's books for finer points of the game (and poor grammer). Had to add that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I will reiterate the comment on the collage degree and getting a good GPA. You will kick yourself in the ass for the next 50 years if you f**k it up and get to retire at age 72 and move into your kids trailer park. (Since you couldn't afford to send them to collage.)

Hope it helps. Let us know
Mark