QQ No Raise

[Louie Landale]

Great game; 4 loose-passive types. Under what situation would playing this QQ the way I did be correct?

UTG1 calls, UTG2 raised, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, I call on the button with QQ, BB and UTG1 calls. 6 to the flop.

Flop is 755. BB/UTG1 check, UTG2 bets, MP3 calls, I call, BB calls. 4 to the turn.

Turn is K. UTG2 bets, MP3 calls, I FOLD.

- Louie

[PokerBob]

IMO, none.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Under what situation would playing this QQ the way I did be correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Heres my gut thoughts with out any real analysis:

Preflop, Your opponents will play any A and almost any K. You also know your opponents will always chase with a single overcard. If you raise preflop you will make it correct for them to chase. You do not raise and give up some equity preflop hoping to recapture it on later streets when your opponents make incorrect calls.

Flop: The pot is substantial and your hand is vulnerable. You want to drive people out. You only call on the flop because you feel the BB and UTG1 would call two bets cold. You plan to wait until the turn when your raise has the more potential to drive the BB and UTG1 out.

Turn: An overcard falls and there has been a bet and a call. You figure that you are either behind to trips or Kings and 5s. Even if you are ahead you can still be out drawn quite often on the river. The times you are already beat added to the times you get outdrawn on the river make it correct to fold here.

Stu

[Gramps]

Only if you have a very good read on UTG+2 as one who would only raise a premium hand up front (i.e., JJ-AA and AK), would not bet AK unimproved on the flop, and would not bet JJ on the Turn if a K came. You give up equity PF, so that you can gain information by his flop action (to know whether or not you're up against another pocket pair). Once that King came and he bet, I'm guessing you were 100% sure that UTG+2 had you beat (you could eliminate JJ (or another QQ) from the equation).

That's quite a bit of equity to give up preflop though, have to be on point on your read to justify it.

I'm guessing that he flipped over AA or KK when it was all said and done (if it got to showdown).

I do also see the benefit of, if you spike trip Queens, you have someone betting into you and can get the field to pay you multiple bets (on the flop or Turn). Doesn't seem like enough in return for getting that 3rd bet in PF though, so I'll guess you had some read on UTG+2 as stated above.

[sthief09]

I think you're trying to prove some kind of point here, because this doesn't look too typical of you. At least I hope you are... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Gramps]

Or...if UTG+2 would only raise AA/AK/KK in that spot, I can see the benefit of keeping the field bigger so that you get paid off when you have trips. 3-betting the field with a single opponent who on average is > 3-to-2 against you (plus having to beat all the other players in the pot) keeping the field more multiway (letting the blinds in) and getting bet into when you flop trips is the way to go.

And when the K came on the Turn...your "last hope" of AK had you beat as well.

[AceHigh]

If utg2 was a super rock and only raised with AA or KK?

[MarkD]

If UTG2 only raises with AK and MP3 gets way too tricky when he flops three of a kind.

[Louie Landale]

Gramps' got a good answer: Villian is REAL tight and has NEVER gotten out of line: seen him call, then check-and-call-down with the over-pair pocket Jacks already; I've also seen him flat call with AK and then check-raise the flop. He seems to be playing around one hand in 20. My QQ vrs this player is NOT worth very much since his raising hands are dominated by AA and KK. 3-betting for value seems pretty marginal against him; although I DO gain a lot of ground vis-a-vis the other players.

Yet there are lots of callers and I cannot fold a pocket pair since the game is otherwise loose.

On the flop I'm getting around 15:1 to draw to my trips which is PLENTY considering the 8sb MINIMUM I'll make on the turn when he bets his over-pair, gets called, and I raise.

Also, if by some chance he does NOT bet the turn I am in a good position to RAISE one of the other callers who both are aggressive and are sure to bet a pair when Villian checks.

No brainer fold when the K hits and he bets.

I figured this course of action (flat calling hoping to get to raise someone else later) costs less when I'm beat and nets about the same when I'm good. Or flop top set.

Its not so much the value of your hand, its the value of your hand vis-a-vis the opponent's hand. I HAVE laid down KK for a double bet PF before. Really. And I'm sure we've all laid down small full houses when the board had big trips.

- Louie

Speaking of Brain-Deaders; one of the callers snagged his 2-outer full-house on the river and was NOT suspicous when Villian bet out again when the board was double paired ... he DID get suspicious when Villian 3-bet him, however. KsFull is good.