Ruling Question! Whats the call?

SaintAces · #1 03-20-2004, 10:06 PM

Situation: 5$ buyin, 4 person, Single Table No Limit Hold'em tournament. All are close friends.

I have 110 chips to his 80 (he is a tight, weaker player that telegraphs bluffs) - antes are five. No blinds.

I have 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and he checks preflop, I check checks.

Flop: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
two over cards, he bets 5 and I raise to 20. He calls.

Turn: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
nice rainbow board and I hit my set. He checks, I bet 30 he calls.

River: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
He pushes all in very seriously - one of his telegraphed bluffs.

I call like lightning, and he shoves all is chips towards mine in frustration, mixing them all together. He then mucks his cards and my other friend, the first player out and the dealer, puts them on the bottom after looking at them.

Then, my other friend, second one out, exclaims "is that a 9?!?" Well, my heads up opponent says yeah, I had 93 offsuit. "Second one out" boy explains that that was a straight, and my trips we no good. First kid, the dealer, also remembers that he had 93. I believe this - these aren't the kids to lie. Well, I SAW the dealer put the cards at the bottom of the deck and that dealers takes out the 93 from the botton. So he did have 93. There is no doubt in my mind that he had it - so that's not an issue.

The issue is WHO gets the chips and who takes the tourney!
He mucked his straight, he was on a stone cold bluff with a pair of threes. I even asked him when he called all in if he "had a straight." He said "nope, just threes." I showed him the sevens and he pushed all of the chips together in utter frustration.

So, yes he had 93, and yes they were mucked and at the bottom of the deck. And yes, he had no clue he had a straight. Who should have won?

Results to come.

GoSox · #2 03-20-2004, 10:49 PM

Once they're mucked, they're gone. Player has to protect his cards, once he gave them it doesn't matter what he had.

B Dids · #3 03-20-2004, 11:53 PM

Had this happen in a tourament of ours. Somebody pushed in with an OESD, somebody else called with a pair of aces. OESD was so surprise to get called that he assumed (we think) the caller had the straight, flipped his cards up and said "you win". The caller thought he folded, muked his cards and OESD instantly was like "that's a dead hand".

We let him pull the much cards out ('cause A- it's a friendly game and B- the guy was a relative newbie) but the OESD actually hit- so he avoided getting screwed.

Shitty, because the guy didn't intend to fold his hand, but dead to rights they were dead and at the bottom of the muck. Still don't know how to feel about the decision that was made. That's how I feel in your example too.

My best advice is before any tournament, make sure people understand that the cards call the hands and not to muck too quickly.

jwvdcw · #4 03-21-2004, 12:31 AM

His cards are dead; you win.

Dynasty · #5 03-21-2004, 01:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Once they're mucked, they're gone. Player has to protect his cards, once he gave them it doesn't matter what he had.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would not be the case in many casinos. If the cards in the muck can be identified, they can still play in many situations.

LetsRock · #6 03-22-2004, 01:01 PM

No brainer. He mucked his cards which kills his hand. It doesn't matter that you can absolutely without a doubt find his cards. He forfeitted his right to the pot. Sorry Charlie, learn how to play the game all the way to the end.

Had he turned his cards face up and declared "pair of threes", the dealer can read his hand for him and award the pot. By mucking the cards, he loses this privelidge.

George Rice · #7 03-22-2004, 08:00 PM

Not in that situation. In a casino that hand is dead. He didn't show his hand and they were mucked. The other players had no business looking at them.

If the player turned them face up, whether he announces that his opponent wins or not, the cards speak for themselves and anyone can read his hand for him.

Now, in a "friendly" game players can do all sorts of things. In the interest of friendship, allowing a hand that should have won to win isn't a bad idea. But there is still something to be said about announcing another player wins and throwing your hand in the muck. You should have the good sense not to attempt to claim the pot afterwards.

LivingLegend58 · #8 03-23-2004, 05:22 AM

He threw them away brother. That is yours. No question.

Thats Interesting! · #9 03-23-2004, 05:29 AM

What cardroom is this? If the cards are Mucked they are gone forever! Thats how most cardrooms play it. Dont know where you been playing at.

I figure you did not get the pot, that is why you are posting!

What a shame!

Yes, you should have won!

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

deacsoft · #10 03-23-2004, 02:12 PM

I too would like to know where this casino is. I have never seen a casino or house game (friends or otherwise) that would allow the recovery of a mucked hand to change the winner of a pot. A casino like that would only encourage people to "angle shoot" all day long. It is a case of poor rules and terrible policy if there is a casino that lets play like that happen and I would never play there. Your post also says "if the cards in the muck can be identified". IDENTIFIED BY WHO? The player who mucked them was in most cases the only player who saw them. To hide the hand is the very point of mucking. You going to take his/her word for it. I won't.

The lesson here is this... DO NOT MUCK OR DISCARD YOUR HAND UNTILL YOU ARE SURE WHO THE WINNER OF THE HAND IS. HOLD IT, PROTECT IT, ASSUME IT'S THE NUTS... UNTILL SOMEONE SHOWS YOU A BETTER HAND.