Bellagio 15-30: JJ in the BB

[cwl]

i'll post the results and my thoughts in the next message. the game was relatively aggressive and i was dealt J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the BB. a LP player limps, the CO limps and the SB completes. i raise and the LP and CO call while the SB folds so three to the flop for 7SB. LP isnt that great a player, he plays too many hands and gets himself into some trouble with marginal stuff (kind of like me in this hand). the CO seems reasonable.

the flop is:
Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

i bet out, LP raises, CO 3 bets, i 4 bet and both call so 3 to the turn for 9.5 BB. turn card is a 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], i bet and both call. the river is a 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. i check, LP checks, CO bets, i call and LP folds.

[Nightwish]

You played it well on every street. CO has either T9 or KT.

[astroglide]

i don't see any value to 4betting a draw out of position here.

[cwl]

the CO had Q9 so i lost to his 2 pair. i didnt feel very sure about any of the decisions i made in this hand after the initial flop bet. at the point where the flop was raised and reraised back to me i thought i was probably behind but that there was still a small chance that i was ahead but much more likely that i was behind with some outs. i seriously considered all three of my choices at this point. ultimately i decided i wasnt going to fold and, given that, raising seemed a little better than calling. this decision was based on the fairly vague idea i had in my mind of being able to put some pressure on some hands that i wouldnt mind folding. the dream scenario in my mind was something like getting Q8 to fold and getting heads up with a flush draw. upon reflection though im just not sure that there are that many hands that i care about that are likely to fold here. most of the playable Q hands are either 2 pair or top pair and a straight draw and will probably hang around. i felt like if i was gonna call the 2 additional bets anyway that the peripheral benefits i might get from a raise made up for the (hopefully small) -ev i had on the bet itself. in hindsight i think the peripheral benefits are not as great as i thought at the time. i also felt that there was a good chance that even some of the hands that were ahead of me would not raise again after i 4 bet and that raising here might slow down the subsequent betting.

on the turn i bet without giving it too much thought. since i thought that a better hand would likely bet if checked too and may well not raise my bet by betting the money would go in if i happened to be ahead as well as when i was behind. additionally, if anyone wanted to fold that would be great but im not sure that thats a very realistic hope since they both hung around for 4 bets on the flop. it would suck to get raised though and since i dont really think a better hand is folding here im not sure that there is that much point to this.

on the river i havent improved and expect that im probably going to lose, especially after the CO bets, but feel like i need to call after inviting a bet by checking with a pretty large pot out there and at least some hand to showdown.

looking back on the hand none of the things i did seem hideously wrong to me but i dont feel that great about any of it either so any comments would be appreciated.

[astroglide]

i think 4betting the flop 3-way out of position is a clear mistake. the most likely scenario is that you're playing against a queen and a jack, which means you're drawing for half the pot.

[cwl]

do you think the hand is even worth a call when its 2 bets back to me on the flop? at the time i think i was closer to folding than to calling. the way i was looking at it is that if my hand is good enough (which it may well not have been) to call 2 bets here then if 1 additional bet increases the likelihood that i will win the pot, even if only marginally, then its worth it. as i said, i think i overrated how much the one additional bet increased my likelihood of winning.

[astroglide]

i didn't notice that the hand was played at the bellagio. if i were playing my A game, i would probably fold this one on the flop. it is likely that you're only hoping for one of your non-diamond 6 outs to come so that you can possibly split the pot.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
the most likely scenario is that you're playing against a queen and a jack, which means you're drawing for half the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i would probably fold this one on the flop. it is likely that you're only hoping for one of your non-diamond 6 outs to come so that you can possibly split the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This line of thinking is much too paranoid.

[elysium]

hi cwl
played great. the only thing, do you see how you're punching and they're both backed up against the ropes? well, it's usually better to bet out on the river in this situation. it's an error to check.

it is really erie how this game situation is really like a boxing match. everyone should be able to feel how you're punching with everything you've got, and how your opponents are against the ropes with their guard up, and calling for dear life. they both think that you have them beat. just like in boxing, if you let up, they think they've weathered the storm and now they start to throw punches. and they will team up against you just like in a wrestling match, and we're not talking about the real wrestling matches here; i mean they will tag team up against you like they're in a phony wrestling match.

there is nothing more dangerous than a phony wrestling match. you'll be pulverized, really.

so while a bet on the river might open a can of worms, a check opens a can of a more slithery worm. your two opponents will put you in a reverse helicopter where you're spining spread eagle like a helicopter blade into the bleachers. they spin you in reverse on the first throw to give them a reason to do a clockwise helicopter with you from the bleaches back into the ring. everyone here should be able to feel this at the point in the hand when you check.

remember, when you're punching and they're against the ropes, only check on the river if you intend to fold to a bet. if you will call, be more determined than usual to bet out instead, when you're in this type of slugfest. you want it to be 'you don't know why, but you're swinging; they don't know why, but they're calling.' you want this state of the universe to remain at a goodly constant.

[astroglide]

i was one of the guys supporting your play of jacks on the 456 monotone flop in the other hand. i think this flop with this action is a money loser virtually every time.