Collusion Defined (Party Poker)

[Holm Fries]

After a reasonable degree of success in live ring games over the last year, I decided two weeks ago to throw my hat into the internet arena. The very first game I sat at I suspected collusion, but it was not clear enough to know for sure. I sat today at roughly the 20th game to witness collusion defined. Needless to say that I was only around long enough to lose one big pot, but it was a painful one. Excuse the long string of hand history below, but it is worth it. The best is the preflop reraise with Q3 offsuit.

My question is this: is there a way to play on-line in a fair legitimate environment without having to deal with this behavior. I enjoy the game immensely, but would give up playing on-line if this is as prevalent as it seems. Names have been changed to protect the inncoent. The hand and my letter complaining to Party Poker is as follows:




I would like to lodge a complaint against two players, Colluder 2 and Colluder 1. Please refer to the hand description below as only one example. During the 30 or so hands that I played at this table, these two were in virtually every pot, mainly raising and reraising each other. Also, they took at least 20 seconds to respond to each action. I believe that they were either on the phone with each other, or instant messaging there hands back and forth. In this hand I was dealt two aces and raised the pot prior to the flop. Colluder 2 reraised the pot with a "junk" hand, a queen and a three of different suits. Colluder 1 proceeded to call, even after I reraised the pot to the cap of four bets prior to the flop. As the hand progressed both players called my bets down to the river after long, long pauses. Then the board paired threes on the river, Colluder 1 paused for a long time, then folded and Colluder 2 reraised me.

I watched this table for several hands after this and they continued to make the same plays, acting slow and raising and reraising with junk. This is clearly collusion on their part. I lost $135 playing two hands against these players and would like to be reimbursed.

I realize that Party Poker can't be held responsible for "wild" and "stupid" plays of its players. However, these two are so obviously working as a team that they deserve to be banned. This is the second time that this has happened to me. The first time I chalked the experience up to learning. However, if you do not address this I don't see how I can play at your site any longer.

I look forward to your reply.

Regards,

Scott Holm
Unwitting Victim

***** Hand History for Game 451442777 *****
3/6 TexasHTGameTable (Limit) - Sat Mar 13 16:37:50 EST 2004
Table Pirates Cove (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: Bystander 1 ( $271)
Seat 3: Bystander 2 ( $25.25)
Seat 4: Bystander 3 ( $56)
Seat 5: Unwitting Victim ( $98)
Seat 6: Colluder 1 ( $244.25)
Seat 7: Bystander 4 ( $149.50)
Seat 8: Colluder 2 ( $164)
Seat 9: Bystander 5 ( $184.50)
Seat 10: Bystander 6 ( $144.50)
Bystander 1 posts small blind (1)
Bystander 2 posts big blind (3)
Bystander 3 posts big blind (3)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Unwitting Victim [ As, Ad ]
Bystander 3 checks.
Unwitting Victim raises (6) to 6
Colluder 1 calls (6)
Bystander 4 folds.
Colluder 2 raises (9) to 9
Bystander 5 folds.
Bystander 6 folds.
Bystander 1 folds.
Bystander 2 folds.
Bystander 3 folds.
Unwitting Victim raises (6) to 12
Colluder 1 calls (6)
Colluder 2 calls (3)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3h, 5s, 2d ]
Unwitting Victim bets (3)
Colluder 1 calls (3)
Colluder 2 calls (3)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Kh ]
Unwitting Victim bets (6)
Colluder 1 calls (6)
Colluder 2 calls (6)
** Dealing River ** : [ 3d ]
Unwitting Victim bets (6)
Colluder 1 folds.
Colluder 2 raises (12) to 12
Unwitting Victim calls (6)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $91 | Rake: $3
Board: [ 3h 5s 2d Kh 3d ]
Bystander 1 balance $270, lost $1 (folded)
Bystander 2 balance $22.25, lost $3 (folded)
Bystander 3 balance $53, lost $3 (folded)
Unwitting Victim balance $65, lost $33 [ As Ad ] [ two pairs, aces and threes -- As,Ad,Kh,3h,3d ]
Colluder 1 balance $223.25, lost $21 (folded)
Bystander 4 balance $149.50, didn't bet (folded)
Colluder 2 balance $222, bet $33, collected $91, net +$58 [ Qd 3c ] [ three of a kind, threes -- Kh,Qd,3c,3h,3d ]
Bystander 5 balance $184.50, didn't bet (folded)
Bystander 6 balance $144.50, didn't bet (folded)

[DrSavage]

This particular hand looks nothing like collusion to me.

[asdf1234]

I don't really see evidence of collusion in the given hand history. I see a moron raising preflop with Q3o and getting lucky. If there were several other incidents where they were raising and reraising others out of the pot, and then folding for one bet on the river, that would be much stronger.

I've never played Party 3/6, but at 2/4, these types of hands are very common.

[TheGrifter]

What about this HH makes you think these two were colluding? It seems like he's just a dumbass.

[mosch]

If they were colluding, I would've expected to see them both staying in at the river, to get four bets out of you after Q3 got their miracle.

I think this was just a maniac on the loose.

[Tosh]

Sorry but that doesn't look anything like collusion.

[CrackerZack]

I do not think it means what you think it means.

[daryn]

inconceivable!

[Thats Interesting!]

You have not played online long enough. Dumb things always happens. Beginners are always looking for collusion, hance peranoia. If you play long enough, you'll come to see that collusion is not that big a problem as you would first imagine it would be.

[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[Nottom]

How can a team possible expect to earn money with this type of play? Capping preflop with Q3o and hoping to get lucky doesn't seem like a solid collusion strategy to me. In fact even in this hand colluder 1 does absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, he just calls bets and fold the river in classic calling station style.

I know its hard to believe, but some players are just really, really, really bad and like to raise and reraise with completely hopeless hands. I see these players all the time (at least one a week) who just raise at every opportunity. I was playing with one the other day that capped every street against my 99 flopped set/turned boat ... he had 24s and flopped a 4. MHIG and I drag a nice pot.

I've played well over 30K hands since making a more serious effort to be a winning player and have never been at a table where I seriously suspected collusion.