River Check-Raise and I'm 3Bet?

Styles · #1 03-13-2004, 12:39 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Styles is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, Styles completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
Styles checks, BB bets, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, Styles raises, BB calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Styles bets, BB folds, MP3 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Styles checks, MP3 bets, Styles raises, MP3 3-bets, Styles calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB
Main Pot: 13.50 BB, between MP3 and Styles.

Since, I check-raised the Flop with Top-Pair and a Jack-Kicker I thought maybe MP3 had clubs, or a Ten or a Q possibly QT or a better Queen KQ/AQ. He calls my TurnBet headsup so I figure probably not the clubs, maybe he's got the Queen and not something like Trip Tens.

So, the river comes with a Jack, no clubs, and I check-raise with two-pair Queens and Jacks and I get reraised. I decide it's probably Jacks and Tens maybe JcTc since QT would have reraised me before now, and I call.

Styles · #2 03-13-2004, 12:41 AM

Hero shows Jh Qd (two pair, queens and jacks).
MP3 shows Kd 9d (straight, king high).
Outcome: MP3 wins 13.50 BB.

A F(*()*#$ing GutShot!!! Arg!

Anyway I held it together and came back pretty well but daaamn this was a brutal one.

I still think I can't be considering K9 there headsup.

What sayeth the SSer's?

bdk3clash · #3 03-13-2004, 01:10 AM

Given how much action you gave him when he hit his gutshot, it was probably right for him to stick around.

:P

Seriously, why did you get so frisky with four to a straight on board? Two pair is a good hand and all, but relative to this board...

bdk3clash · #4 03-13-2004, 01:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I decide it's probably Jacks and Tens maybe JcTc since QT would have reraised me before now, and I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really believed this, why didn't you cap?

Styles · #5 03-13-2004, 01:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I decide it's probably Jacks and Tens maybe JcTc since QT would have reraised me before now, and I call.

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If you really believed this, why didn't you cap?

[/ QUOTE ]

OOPS, I thought explained that, but, see I left some out.

When I got 3bet, I worked back through the hand trying to decide if it was 2pair or trips or even the straight. I decided it was 'probably' two-pair, but, I feared oddly played trips or Kc9c as I had been holding 2 clubs as a possibility. I did consider 3betting, I also thought about folding, since the 3bet shocked me. I wouldn't have been too surprised to see Kc9c but Kd9d was the last thing I thought I would see here.

"decide it's probably" was not exactly "believed" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
I "believe" in God, I "decided it's probably" Jacks and Tens but I was skeptical [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Styles · #6 03-13-2004, 01:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Given how much action you gave him when he hit his gutshot, it was probably right for him to stick around.

:P

Seriously, why did you get so frisky with four to a straight on board? Two pair is a good hand and all, but relative to this board...

[/ QUOTE ]

First I'm LMAO at that - you got me there with the 'action' line [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Because, it was Inside not Open Ended. I didn't think I would see it being 3handed after the flop and headsup on the turn (since the BB folded in front of him).

For example, if it would have been the Button instead of the BB, then there would have been someone behind him and I could have said, "well maybe he chased thinking they would call and get extra action if he hit" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Gramps · #7 03-13-2004, 01:52 AM

That's a pretty ballsy C/R on the River for Party $2/4 where any 9 has you beat. Your opponent could easily have Ac9c, Kc9c, Tc9c, 9c8c, 9c7c etc. He's played this hand so far like someone with those holdings would play it. Obviously, it turns out he was chasing with garbage, but....

If you go for the C/R, for it to have value, (1) you have to have the best hand (unless (a) your opponent would check behind you with a better hand than you saving you a bet vs. betting out - If he has the straight, he's betting it OR (b) he'd fold a better hand when C/R'd - that's not happening either), (2) he has to bet that worse hand, and (hopefully) he'll call your raise when he bets that worse hand. I'd venture that if he doesn't have a 9, unless he's an opponent that likes to auto-bluff/bet when others show weakeness, he'll check behind you with a worse hand (and one that might have called a bet).

If he has you beat, he's going to bet when checked to, you're going to raise, and he's then going to 3-bet you and you're (it appears) going to pay him off.

So....as far as the C/R here, when you're ahead, you'll probably get 0 BB on the River. When you're behind, you'll probably lose 3 BB.

I can see check-calling here as a good option. If he's on a busted flush draw, he might bet a hand he wouldn't call with. And, if he does have a 9, you only lose 1 BB (versus 3). If it's a "call-down" type opponent who will look you up to "keep you honest" with part of the flop, I don't think betting is that bad of a play.

Styles · #8 03-13-2004, 02:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That's a pretty ballsy C/R on the River for Party $2/4 where any 9 has you beat. Your opponent could easily have Ac9c, Kc9c, Tc9c, 9c8c, 9c7c etc. He's played this hand so far like someone with those holdings would play it. Obviously, it turns out he was chasing with garbage, but....

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I see that. Thanks. I just couldn't buy some of those "lone 9" hands, but, obviously you're right.

[ QUOTE ]
I can see check-calling here as a good option. If he's on a busted flush draw, he might bet a hand he wouldn't call with. And, if he does have a 9, you only lose 1 BB (versus 3). If it's a "call-down" type opponent who will look you up to "keep you honest" with part of the flop, I don't think betting is that bad of a play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I see that too.

Thanks.

JTG51 · #9 03-13-2004, 02:06 AM

That's a pretty bad spot for a river check raise, unless you have reason to believe this opponent will bluff bet a busted draw. Many Party players will be scared to bet anything but a straight on that board, even after you check.

JTG51 · #10 03-13-2004, 02:11 AM

A F(*()*#$ing GutShot!!! Arg!

Anyway I held it together and came back pretty well but daaamn this was a brutal one.

What's the big deal? How is this brutal? He had a gutshot and an overcard, his post flop play wasn't even close to brutal. Would you feel better if he hit a King instead of a Jack on the river (other than the fact that you would have lost less)?