Got caught with QQ vs. KK. Anything I could have done?

[jedi]

Here's a hand at the .25-.50 NL tables at Ultimate Bet. Villian has been loose, passive and has about $45.

xxxxxxxxx is at seat 0 with $124.15.
xxxxxxxxxx is at seat 1 with $24.30.
xxxxxxxxx is at seat 2 with $9.20.
xxxxxxxxx is at seat 3 with $12.50.
xxxxxxxxxx is at seat 4 with $25.
xxxxxxxxxxx is at seat 5 with $102.70.
jedi is at seat 6 with $69.15.
xxxxxxx is at seat 7 with $22.15.
xxxxxxx is at seat 8 with $14.15.
Villian is at seat 9 with $45.50.
The button is at seat 5.

jedi posts the small blind of $.25.
BB posts the big blind of $.50.
2 people post out of turn for $.50.

jedi: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Pre-flop:

Villian in EP raises to $2.
EP calls.
Poster calls.
jedi re-raises to $11.
Folded to Villian who calls.

Flop (board: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]):

jedi bets $27. Villian goes all-in for
$34.50. jedi calls.

At this point, I squarely put Villian on AK or AQ, mainly because he didn't re-raise me pre-flop. I bet out the size of the pot and he re-raised me all in. There was no way I was folding, so I called.

Turn (board: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]):

(no action in this round)


River (board: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

Villian shows K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Stompbox has K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]: full house, nines full of kings.
jedi mucks cards.
(jedi has Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].)

Anything I could have done here? Luckly we both didn't have more money.

[tw texas]

I'd be positive he has AA or KK on the flop, but you still have to call...I think your preflop raise was too much though

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be positive he has AA or KK on the flop, but you still have to call...I think your preflop raise was too much though

[/ QUOTE ]

There were 3 people in for $2 each, so I basically raised the size of the pot. Was that a bad idea?

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be positive he has AA or KK on the flop, but you still have to call...I think your preflop raise was too much though

[/ QUOTE ]
This statement is asenine. First of all, your preflop raise was fine - it definately wasn't too much. Secondly, if you're positive he has AA or KK, then you have to fold. You're only getting 10.6:1 to call, and you're an 11.1:1 dog to improve. You'd be throwing away almost two Big Blinds by calling.

However, many players will make this move with hands like JJ-88 or AK, so you do have an easy call here.

As it turns out, villian played his hand extremely well. If he comes back over the top of you preflop, he gives you a chance to back away from a dominated hand. Since his stack is so small, he'd be pot committed if he did come over the top, so if you re-raised him all-in he'd lose his whole stack. So the correct move is to smooth-call preflop and trap you on the flop, which he did perfectly.

I can't say I would have played the hand any differently. You can't check the flop to induce a bluff because you're too vulnerable to overcards or the fourth 9. If your stacks were deeper then you would have been in for a lot more before you had a chance to get away from this hand.

[Krytemaster]

You played it fine, you were just very unlucky to be up against KK here.

Regarding Villians call preflop instead of coming back over the top I don´t agree with that play. I would have reraised in his position, most of the time you will get called anyway by a QQ or JJ and somtimes lower pairs as well. If the reraiser (in this case you) would be holding an ace I want him to pay to hit another one. And if you hold QQ or JJ and an ace comes on the flop he won´t be able to extract much money from you. So often he needs a quite good flop to get your last money, and might even lose to an ace if one hits.

[Guy McSucker]

I think you're going to lose all your money in this case. Think about something else: how best to maximise your win on those occasions when you're ahead.

See crockpot's reply to a recent post by Acesover8s about QQ out of position.
The thread is here.

Guy.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]

Regarding Villians call preflop instead of coming back over the top I don´t agree with that play. I would have reraised in his position, most of the time you will get called anyway by a QQ or JJ and somtimes lower pairs as well. If the reraiser (in this case you) would be holding an ace I want him to pay to hit another one. And if you hold QQ or JJ and an ace comes on the flop he won´t be able to extract much money from you. So often he needs a quite good flop to get your last money, and might even lose to an ace if one hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, you say that most of the time, you'll get called by QQ or JJ anyways. Does that mean that if I do face a major re-raise, that I should be laying down the QQ and JJ? I don't want to be fearful of AA/KK all the time when I do have QQ/JJ. Maybe I've been overplaying these pairs the entire time.

My thought process going into the hand is simple. If no Ace or King hits the flop, then I'm betting big. Unless there are 2 jacks or tens on the board, I'd be betting the pot, because I don't want the AK to stick around to catch either card on the turn or river. The three 9s didn't worry me. I didn't see villian with a 9 at all, but I absolutely did NOT put him on AA or KK. As it turns out from chatting afterwards, he was very, very afraid of AA but decided to pay it off if it was there.

[tewall]

[ QUOTE ]
Does that mean that if I do face a major re-raise, that I should be laying down the QQ and JJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he re-raised you all-in, he'd be offering you about 6 to 5, or slightly better than even money. So you'd have to ask yourself what hands he would be willing to re-raise all-in with, and if you'd be better than 50/50 against those hands. Anyone would re-raise with AA or KK. Many with AK and QQ. If your opponent would re-raise all-in with hands like JJ, TT and AQ, or bluff, that looks like enough to make it a call.

[tewall]

[ QUOTE ]
As it turns out, villian played his hand extremely well. If he comes back over the top of you preflop, he gives you a chance to back away from a dominated hand. Since his stack is so small, he'd be pot committed if he did come over the top, so if you re-raised him all-in he'd lose his whole stack. So the correct move is to smooth-call preflop and trap you on the flop, which he did perfectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the essence of this, that re-raising gives Hero a chance to get away from his hand, and smooth-calling is likely to be more profitable than the re-raise, but don't understand this part: "so if you re-raised him all-in he'd lose his whole stack." First of all, Villian's ahead, so he could only lost his stack if Hero spiked a Q somewhere. Maybe you meant if Hero had AA. Secondly, if KK re-raises, he's all-in, so Hero won't have a chance to re-raise him.

[Krytemaster]

[ QUOTE ]

Okay, you say that most of the time, you'll get called by QQ or JJ anyways. Does that mean that if I do face a major re-raise, that I should be laying down the QQ and JJ? I don't want to be fearful of AA/KK all the time when I do have QQ/JJ. Maybe I've been overplaying these pairs the entire time.


[/ QUOTE ]


How to play QQ and JJ depends on what kind of opponent you´re up against. If you get re-raised preflop in a similar situation it all comes down to what kind of opponent you are facing.

That´s why it´s so important to know your opponents. Many of your most important decisions comes down to knowing the opponent and act accordingly. Against some players a certain hand can be a monster and against another player it might be garbage.