KK UTG, turn c/r

[Henke]

Unfortunately, I don't have access to the hand-histories from the session now, so some details may not correspond to the actual play of the hand.

Anyway, I'm trying to incorporate the turn checkraise more into my game, because I'm very open to steal attempts when I check a hand on the turn. A few orbits before this hand, I bet middle pair with crappy kicker into 3-4 opponents, turn comes yet another overcard that doesn't help my hand and I check-fold.

The table here has been "normal" on the passive-aggressive scale. What I define as normal is that there's usually one bet, but more seldomly a raise. It's not party-loose, but it's not that tight neither.

UB .5-1 10-handed, I'm UTG and get dealt pocket kings.

I raise, and get 3 callers between me and button, SB folds and BB calls.

Flop comes 3 undercards, no flushdraw. Let's say:
3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, I bet, only BB folds.

Turn comes Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I check, next person bets, all call to me and I c/r. All call.

River is the "horrible" A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I bet out.

Was this a bad situation to try for the turn c/r? What hands are appropriate? (Results later)

[Peter Harris]

looks fine to me. rainbow and no overt straight draws; someone may bet out their queens here (did they?) for you to raise.

i reckon you made it to QK or QJ and the ace didn't help anyone.

Probably wrong!

All the best,
Pete Harris

[Henke]

Didn't start a flamewar on this one, so maybe I should assume the C/R was good [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Anyway, when I bet the river, all folded. Dunno if that was because they put me on AQ or an overpair, or if no one actually had top-pair...

[Zetack]

I have to admit, I'm not wild about the checkraise on the turn. Maybe I just don't have the stones for it.

The primary purpose of the checkraise--particularly on the turn, in my book is to get more money in the pot. Thus you do it with your really strong hands.

What the checkraise does for you on the turn here is it traps in everybody who has called a bet...in this case, with the bettor to your left, its everybody. What you really want to do is get people out with your KK in a pot that's already a nice size (14.5 sb's before the turn action). Folks may have called the flop with just about anything and after paying two to see the flop, a lot of folks will see the turn for one more small bet and then go away to a bet on the turn. I like to help then to do so by betting. You particularly want anybody with an ace in their hand to go away now. Since everybody called the bet of the guy to your left, it looks like it wouldn't have worked here, but that's my thinking.

So I bet out.

Also, I don't believe in making plays for deception purposes at micro limits. (In your case, to keep folks from making plays at you when you check the turn) Your opponents just aren't observant enough.

On the plus side, it looks like your opponents may be drawing to only three outs, nobody's shown any strength, and I suppose there is some chance (remote but there) that a c/r, after you raised on PF and bet the flop, will cause a weak ace to fold...

I also don't like it because I think there's a decent chance this turn gets checked around.

I say if you are going to check raise the turn with just top pair, do it with either Aces, or TPTK (preferably A-K). No overcard can fall that can beat you, and in the case of A-K TPTK one of the cards has hit you instead of your opponents.

--Zetack

[Henke]

Very good post, thanks! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I thought some of what you wrote, and to sum it up:

Someone with 5 outs or more is correct to call me here, but they don't know that! They could be sharing kicker with me (if I had AQ), or they might suspect me of having a set of queens. Since I raised preflop and bet the flop, I probably have induced some fear into my opponents. Many opponents routinely call the flop and fold the turn. AND if I make someone who has 5 outs fold (incorrectly), I will gain about 0.79 big bets! With the perfect scenario of only one betting out and calling the checkraise, I would gain about 0.78 big bets but since there's a high possibility others will also call, the margins are pushed downwards.

In other words, I have one of those situations where I can make my micro-limit opponents fold incorrectly (I think).

[Trix]

In a 7BB pot, you want naked aces to call and if you can make them call two, then its even better [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Trix]

I´m not sure I would have done it here, as people could be calling with overcards on a nine high flop.
If the flop had been J or Q high rainbow, I think it would be a good time.
Also the stronger your hand are, the better as you aren´t as vulnerable to free cards, but if you think the turn card might give someone a raising hand, you are ahead of, so you can 3Bet, betting is probably better.

Anyways, in the hand you posted I think you can do both, it will depend on your table image, aswell as your read on the players involved.