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  #1  
Old 03-04-2004, 11:49 AM
art_vandelay art_vandelay is offline
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Default Lucky or good?

Big play last night in a 2 table Stars SNG. At the time I felt a call was the right move but the more I think about the more I think this was a hand I should have gotten away from. Any thoughts would be most appreciated.

3 players left blinds at 300/600

Button has app. 7000
SB has app. 7000
I have about 10000

I post the BB and look down at 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Button raises the minimum 600
SB folds
I call (I'm pretty sure this was the right move)

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check with bottom pair and nut flush draw (not sure why I did that except that both of these players had been betting my draws for me all night and not folding when I lead out)

Button goes all in for 6000 or so.

I think briefly and call.

Button turns over AA

Turn: blank River: [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I win with the flush.

This essentially sealed the deal and I went on to win. However, the more I think the more I'm sure that this was a hand I could have gotten away from pretty easily--after all I had only voluntarily put in 600 so far. My only thought at the time was that his push meant he had a good, not great hand i.e. QQ or JJ perhaps with a heart and so I had a lot of outs.

Was this the right play or did I just get lucky?
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  #2  
Old 03-04-2004, 12:12 PM
GoSox GoSox is offline
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Default Re: Lucky or good?

Short handed you're playing so many hands with so few people that you need to vary your play and there is much less often a "correct" answer. Often in this situation if I'm first to act I will make a bet to show some strength because it often keeps someone else from trying to bet me out of the pot, such as this instance.

However, in this case with AA and a possible flush and straight draw on the board he probably would have allin'd anyhow.
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  #3  
Old 03-04-2004, 12:31 PM
Stagemusic Stagemusic is offline
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Default Re: Lucky or good?

I know that with the ultra tight crowd we have here your comments will be split about 50-50 between lucky and good so I will just split it myself and say...both.

You were a 56-44 dog going in against AA with that board. So, in that sense, you were lucky. You were also far from Pot committed with "only" 1200 invested in the pot at that point. I would probably have folded to the pre-flop raise but I do understand why you didn't given the circumstances. I do think the button might have made a mistake here by only raising the minimum but I expect he was wanting as much value as possible for his AA. Once the flop came giving you the nut flush draw and bottom pair I think I might have made a pot sized bet rather than checking here. But as was pointed out he would probably be going all in here anyway to protect his A's and hoping for exactly for what he got...you on a draw that you were going to call with. He got unlucky and the 4th [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] fell giving you the hand. You both met your expectation. He got the caller he wanted on a draw and you got the hand you wanted at the end. You were lucky, he was not.
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  #4  
Old 03-04-2004, 12:51 PM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
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Default Re: Lucky or good?

there was 2700 preflop, plus 6000 to you, makes for 8700:6000 odds, or 1.45:1. With 11 outs you had a 41.7% chance of making your hand with two cards to come*.

0.417 x 8700 - 0.583 x 6000 = 3627.90 - 3498.00 = -230.1

so you had a "slightly" negative EV on the hand. It was a coin flip essentially, something you should generally avoid for all your chips unless you are getting a decent overlay, which you were not.

That should answer your question.

al

* from the chart in HPFAP. The two dimes anaysis gave these results:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=229960
pokenum -h ac as - ah 7c -- 7h th kh
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Kh Th 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 554 55.96 427 43.13 9 0.91 0.564
7c Ah 427 43.13 554 55.96 9 0.91 0.436

Using 43.6% instead of 41.7% it would probably be very close to 0 EV.
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  #5  
Old 03-04-2004, 12:55 PM
jaydoggie jaydoggie is offline
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Default Re: Lucky or good?

what if it were QQ, KQ, KJ,QJ. meaning he had 3 extra outs with his ace. its hard to predict AA here.
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  #6  
Old 03-04-2004, 12:56 PM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
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Default Re: Lucky or good?

Note that without the pair of sevens, and thus two more outs to three sevens, he would have been a bigger dog, and if you plug that into my analysis he would have been much more -EV.

Also note your 56:44 is almost identical to the chart in HPFAP's #s and the twodimes.net analysis, a coinflip with a slight disadvantage.

al
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  #7  
Old 03-04-2004, 01:04 PM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
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Default Re: Lucky or good?

ok let's find out some other possibilities:

giving his opponent QQ:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=229983
pokenum -h qc qs - ah 7c -- 7h th kh
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Kh Th 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Qc 485 48.99 505 51.01 0 0.00 0.490
7c Ah 505 51.01 485 48.99 0 0.00 0.510

giving his opponent QJ:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=229985
pokenum -h qc js - ah 7c -- 7h th kh
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Kh Th 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Qc 284 28.69 706 71.31 0 0.00 0.287
7c Ah 706 71.31 284 28.69 0 0.00 0.713

giving his opponent KK:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=229967
pokenum -h kc ks - ah 7c -- 7h th kh
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Kh Th 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Kc 698 70.51 292 29.49 0 0.00 0.705
7c Ah 292 29.49 698 70.51 0 0.00 0.295

giving his opponent Kh Js:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=229972
pokenum -h kc js - ah 7c -- 7h th kh
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Kh Th 7h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Kc 482 48.69 508 51.31 0 0.00 0.487
7c Ah 508 51.31 482 48.69 0 0.00 0.513

you can plug in the numbers to the equation if you like. The inferences should be self-evident.

al
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  #8  
Old 03-04-2004, 01:06 PM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
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Default Re: Lucky or good?

One thing I didn't mention was that betting out from the blind on that pot would not be a bad idea. His opponent might fold, but if he calls, you have outs. If his opponent raised, he'd more clearly have the odds to call with the draw, rather than as it played, calling 6000 cold.

al
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  #9  
Old 03-04-2004, 01:12 PM
jaydoggie jaydoggie is offline
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Default Re: Lucky or good?

outcome definately lucky. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] at best you were slightly ahead. not worht all your chips. but thats ok, someones gotta play allin for a flush or else i wouldnt bust out early half the time :P
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  #10  
Old 03-04-2004, 01:20 PM
freemont freemont is offline
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Default Re: Lucky or good?

I don't see any reason to say you would have folded pre-flop with A7o 3 handed to a minimum raise from the button??Granted you're going to be playing out of position, but come on, it's three handed and the fact that button raised tells you (especially if he's aggressive) very little. Unless he's been raising bigger in these situations previously in which case maybe he's looking for action on a monster. Still a 600 call for a pot of 2100 is automatic in my opinion. A8-AA are the only had you don't have proper pot odds to see a flop against...

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