Two middle pair hands - Party 1/2

[stantheman]

Here are two consecutive Party 1/2 hands from last night, which I'm thinking I may have played too aggressively.

No specific reads (watching Seinfeld [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]) but the table is typical party loose, teetering between passive and aggressive.

Hand #1

I am in EMP with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Folded to me, I raise, just CO calls.

Flop is 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet out, he raises, I 3-bet, he calls.

Turn is J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet, he calls.

River is 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, he bets, I call.


Hand #2

The very next hand, I am EP with 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG and UTG+1 fold, I limp, LP raises, CO calls 2, BB calls, I call. 4 of us, 4 BB.

Flop is 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, I bet, LP raises, CO and BB call 2, I call. 8 BB.

Turn is J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Checked around.

River is 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, I bet, they all call.


Any thoughts? Too aggressive? Not aggressive enough?

[Emmitt]

Hand 1: I'm guessing CO has two pairs when they raise the flop, or AQ/KQ. If this is the case I wouldn't have 3-bet, and there isn't enough money in the pot to carry this on.

Hand 2: I'm guessing LP has JJ, QQ, KK, or AA, in which case you need another 7 to win - again the pot odds don't favour you.

So I think maybe too aggressive in both cases

[bwana devil]

yes, looks too aggressive. i would have dumped them both before the river. each hand had two overcards youre fighting against. id drop them and save your money for a chance to raise a different hand.

[stantheman]

Emmitt you hit them both right on the nose:

Hand #1: he flipped A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for a pair of queens.

In a headsup hand, why would I immediately put my opponent on a big pair once he raises me? Personally, it would take alot less for me to raise a flop bet headsup. Did I give him too much credit?

Hand #2: LP flips K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for 2 pair, and takes it down
CO flips A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for lower 2 pair
BB flips 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for pair jacks, ace high

Once the turn is checked around, I have to think I have the best hand at this point. So I bet the river for value. Is this logic just totally off?

Thanks for the replies.

[Victor]

The first hand is tough. I would bet out and just call his raise. He probably has a queen unless his lag or tricky. Most 1-2 party players are loose passive so his raise after your preflop raise clearly means he has Q. So call his raise and fold on the turn if unimproved.

The second hand looks like a thin value bet and i think you played it correct. You possibly lose to a better PP or someone could have hit a 10. Check-folding is not a bad play either

[charlie_t_jr]

In #1, I think the 3 bet was a mistake. I think in both hands, I would bet out on the flop, then check fold the turn.

[el_grande]

More agressive than I would be.

The LP player with KK in hand 2 is a funny one. There are players out there who are timid and figure their KK or AA must be beat. Problem is, I never realize I am up against a wuss like this until it's too late.

[TBone]

[ QUOTE ]
In a headsup hand, why would I immediately put my opponent on a big pair once he raises me? Personally, it would take alot less for me to raise a flop bet headsup. Did I give him too much credit?


[/ QUOTE ]

You forget. You raised pre-flop, then you bet out after the flop and he still raised you. That is in essence saying one of two things: I've got a big part of this flop, or 2) I've got a huge draw and I'm going to try to take down the pot right here.

My guess would be he's saying the flop hit him hard and you should just call that bet.


[ QUOTE ]
Once the turn is checked around, I have to think I have the best hand at this point. So I bet the river for value. Is this logic just totally off?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, your logic is off. Even an overpair is now going to fear a J since the board paired Jacks now. You also have two players behind you that could have paired up on the river. I don't see this as a spot to value bet.

T

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Stan,

In hand 1, if your opponent will raise the flop with less than top pair, you can go to showdown. However, I would not have 3-bet, since you will only push him off of worse hands and never a better one, and you can't be convinced that you're ahead. I would go into check-call mode. The way you played it, I think you have a river fold.

In Hand 2, betting the calling the flop is bad. You have to check and fold.

GoT

[stantheman]

Thanks Guy-

[ QUOTE ]
In Hand 2, betting the calling the flop is bad. You have to check and fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

My thought process in betting into him was: 1) he just calls and tells me he is not that strong (maybe 2 overcards); or 2) he raises and makes it heads up, giving me a better shot at winning it.

I don't give him enough credit to just call my flop bet with plans to raise the turn; I don't think most of these guys are paying enough attention to conjure up plans like that.

I guess I just didn't automatically put him on a big pair (I find people will raise almost any 2 in these games) and wanted to maximize my chances of winning the pot.

Looking at the way things turned out though, point well taken.