dealing with loose aggressive tables

[Flushed]

Hi guys,

I was playing 5/10 at the Taj over the weekend and ran into table that was more loose and aggressive than I have ever seen above 2/4. Hands were consistently three bet and usually capped pre flop, but 7-8 callers would still see a flop. After building a pot this big, everyone drew to the river (often to a second pair) and an average of 5-6 people showed down. Players were also more passive on the flop/turn/river.

What starting hands are best to play in this situation? I don't like playing suited connectors capped pre flop b/c I think they lose much of their value; big unsuited cards are useless (i.e. AQo no good); finally, you can imagine how often big PP like AA or KK stand up with 7 people drawing against. Plus it's difficult to ruin their odds after building a pot that big pre flop.

What is my best strategy here? (obviously, positioning didn't help and isolation raising is impossible).

- Flushed

[sthief09]

Play it like you'd play any loose-aggressive game. Big suited connectors (especially big ones, but if you get a small one it's still okay because you said that the game is passive on the flop, turn, and river), PAIRS (this is a perfect game for pocket pairs. If you hit a set you get paid off bigtime), and suited aces.

I feel like pocket pairs would be like gold in that game. If you flop a set you could easily win a $500 pot.

Hope you came out of it alive.

[Flushed]

Well, having played big suited connectors and big PP I still got crushed. Granted this is a game of patience, where hitting once rewards you for the past two hours, having your top sets broken several times can become frustrating (top set like KKK or AAA). Most frequent action of the night was having a gutshot straight river you, say "nice hand, sir," smile, muck top set face down. Repeat.

[Joe Tall]

you can imagine how often big PP like AA or KK stand up with 7 people drawing against.

Yeah, I know! AA and KK are multiway monsters! What a great game to have such hands! Yes, I'm serious.

You'll need to tighten up if it's routinely capped preflop. Flopping sets with pocket pairs in this game will surely line your pockets. If I could get in for 2-bets with 8 players, I'd see the flop with any pocket pair.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sthief09]

I feel your pain. Sometimes it just feels like my sets make or break an entire 15-hour session. It just sucks when you can't seem to fill up in huge pots. Good luck in the future.

[Flushed]

My sets got cracked; all of them. And since I was playing very tight, they were often AAA or KKK. I understand that this table will lead to high variance but what I saw was ridiculous.

Also, it was very difficult to limp or cold call two, even LP, b/c several players were on auto three bet and cap. After you called two, you're often stuck calling the other two. And now you're playing your SC or mid PP capped.

Does it just come down to luck at this point? It seemed that everyone just threw money in as in a lottery and since no one folded you are basically asking what are the odds of my hand standing with that many player drawing against.

Does my edge only come from hand selection pre flop, since no one is leaving after the flop (no bluffing, representing, etc)? (Needless to say, the players couldn't tell you the difference between implied odds and value betting; complete idiots).

[sthief09]

Well playing tight reduces the effect of luck and the variance. If you played this game long enough, you'd win a few big hands, and you'd probably eventually makes some money.

So the fact that you had a bad session can be attributed to bad luck, because it was such a small sample of hands. If you played for 2 hours (I feel like that's what you said), that's 60 hands. You only get a PP 1 in 16 hands, so you basically "should've" only gotten 4 PP. That just goes to show you how small a sample that was.

And I may be wrong with this, but I think you get paid off in the longrun if there are 5+ other people seeing the flop with you for one bet. So I'd think if you can guarantee 6 or 7 people would see the flop, then calling a cap with a small PP is still a good move.

The fact that play after the flop was passive throws a cog into this whole plan, because you won't get paid off as much. Personally, I'd probably [censored] my pants if I sat down at that table, so it was still a good experience for you. I've never been in a game like that, and I'm sure the first time I do, I will get destroyed.

[Flushed]

I played for about 10 hours...probably still too small a sample size

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] i'll chulk it off to an "educational experience"

[DrPublo]

Any time 7 or 8 players are routinely seeing the flop, you want to be playing drawing hands. That's evident, and I agree that you can safely muck AQo, KQo, etc. This is true at the .01-.02 limit or NL games online, as well as any game where too many people are in (with absolute trash like K5o).

The fact that it's getting 3-bet or capped every time is annoying, no question. But that doesn't mean you should be playing only AA and KK, either. It means that of the drawing hands you'd usually play, tighten up. Only play the high end of them. Hands like TJs, 9Ts, etc seem absolutely ideal for this game. Suited aces, especially ones that have both straight and flush potential, also are promising (i.e. I'd rather play A2s than A7s here).

Of course, don't get carried away with it. I doubt I'd play lower than 9Ts--even though I love 78s, it's just not worth it.

It boils down to variance. If you want to make money at that game, you're going to have to play capped flops with drawing hands. But you (unlike the rest of the table) know how to get away from 9Ts when you spike a 9-high flop...do you THINK all the assorted overcards playing with you aren't sticking around? This means it's an exteremly high variance game, and you'll drop 50BB easy (and make 50BB just as easily). If your bankroll can swing it, nice...mine cant.

The key is when you make a hand, BET...and don't stop. Don't try and get fancy. If you flop a set and want to check the flop, c/r the turn, you actually just cost yourself money.

But I think the real answer to the problem is to not sit at that game at all--or at the Taj at all, for that matter. Stick to the Borg.

The Doc

[Mike]

This is a tough to beat game because you can't win with just good hands, and you invest much more than you can usually win back in a couple of random pots in a bet to win ratio. I would find a better game when they want to have fun and not play as long as possible on their buy in.