TT from button in a loose game

[Henke]

Very good table with looseish callingstations all around.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold 'Em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB bets, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

River: (13 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB folds, MP1 calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 15 BB

Results later. Comments?

[Nottom]

Raise preflop. You only have one "legit" hand in the pot and you are on the button. If you can't raise TT here you aren't gonna find a lot of spots to raise it.

I think the flop smoothcall is a good play here. If you raise no one is folding plus you give yourself a cheap pass if an ugly card comes on the turn and inspires some action ahead of you.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Henke,

Your play here isn't very good. Preflop you need to raise. I was away from the Micro forum for quite a while, so I'm not sure if limping with TT at super loose tables has become the norm, but it shouldn't, not from the Button after ANY amount of limpers. Give me 1 limper, 2, 4, or 7, and I'll raise every single time. Two words: Equity and position. They go together very nicely.

On the flop you need to raise. Your decision to wait for a good turn card isn't a good one in this situation. You really need to raise here to make your play later in the hand easier. Getting the BB to fold for a raise when he would've called with 2 overs by itself may be worth it, but there are many other reasons as well. The posts that Clarkmeister and myself started over in the SS today concerning when and why to flat call the flop in order to raise the turn are meant for specific situations and conditions. Your hand does not meet them. You need to go with your first inclination here and raise that flop. Save the trickier calls for trickier situations. This hand should've been straight-forward.

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

I think the flop smoothcall is a good play here.

I wholeheartedly, but respectfully, disagree.

GoT

[Henke]

If I remember correctly, somewhere in HPfAP it's stated that raising w JJ in a loose game is a bad idea, because you either want 5 or more callers, or 2 or less. In this specific hand, I felt that a raise might drive out SB, but noone else. I would probably end up playing against 3-4 opponents for 6-8 sb. Anyone holding overcards would be correct to draw, as would probably anyone who caught any pair on the flop. Also, I would probably have to give up my hand if an A flopped or two cards &gt; T.

Is my thinking flawed?

[edit changed title]

[Ed Miller]

Is my thinking flawed?

Yes. Read the stuff I wrote in this thread.

[Henke]

I really do think you're right (and GoT and Nottom). But I need to understand why (and my head is quite thick [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

From the other thread
Think in terms of edges. In poker, it's usually correct to push an edge if you have one. Occasionally, you should forgo pushing a very small edge because you expect a MUCH BIGGER edge on a later street. In this situation, JJ already has a big edge preflop.

I suspect you're talking about AQo hands here, which doesn't flop a pair about 68% of the time. With TT, we can expect at least one overcard to fall about 62% of the time and then we're not certain if we are a small favourite or a huge underdog. With 99, the number is up to 73%. So my guess is that 99 is a clear non-raise preflop in this situation, but I still feel that not raising (with TT) and gaining an edge postflop* makes up for the missed 1.5 sb preflop.

My point is that TT is almost as vulnerable to flops as AQ, although when the flop is flopped, it's usually even more vulnerable because there are almost no redraw-posibilities.

*I feel it's an edge postflop to not have raised, because if say a K flops, most passive opponents (at least that I have encountered) don't bet into the preflop raiser if they hold a hand like K4o. They will however call down to the river. Also, if the flop comes with just undercards, I can many times raise to drive opponents out, or just exploit a larger edge.

[Nottom]

I misread the post and thought the SB had bet instead of the BB. Therefore I change my original opinion and agree that a flop raise is in order. Being able to knock out even one player to a raise makes it that much more important to do so.

If everyone was already in the pot I think you lose some of the value in raising, and it makes it a much closer decision although it may still be correct to go ahead and raise.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
If everyone was already in the pot I think you lose some of the value in raising, and it makes it a much closer decision although it may still be correct to go ahead and raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
The value in raising is that people are putting money in a pot that you are a substantial favorite to win. If some of your opponents get tired of giving you money and fold, that's good too.

I don't think this is remotely close and would happily raise with a nine.

[Henke]

Hmm... I don't get why it's a clear raise.

Reasons for raising:
<ul type="square">[*]I probably have the best hand, so a raise is +EV. And if no one would bet the turn before me, this is the way to get most money in.[*]I might drive SB out, and if he has 4-7 outs I'll loose money by not driving him out.[/list]
IMO reasons for not raising:
<ul type="square">[*]One more bet is probably not going to drive out anyone with a gutshot, anyone who has bottom-middle-top pair or anyone who just holds some overcards.[*]My opponents will be easier to read on the turn. If an A,K,Q,J,8 or 6 comes, BB bets and CO raises, I can probably fold. However, if I bet, I will bully my opponents into check-calling (or perhaps check-raising).[*]If BB bets, I can raise (if it's a "safe" card) and thus get even more money in than raising the flop. If BB fails to bet, some of my other two opponents probably will and I can drive the rest out with a double bet on the turn.[/list]
So, please, enlighten me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]