Can I get some advice . . .

[Billman]

I'm still a babe in the woods compared to a lot of people here when it comes to Hold 'Em but I've been doing my homework reading Skalnsky, Lee Jones, etc. and playing tons of Texas Turbo Hold 'Em as well as trying to get in as much online play as possible (and a little 2/4 action at my local b&m).

I play fairly tight. I might play as many as 24% of my hands or when I'm getting cold decked all the way down to 12%. When I'm playing at a loose/passive or even a tight/passive game I can usually rack up the wins pretty easily. This has been even more true as I've begun to become more aggressive and raise with my big pairs pre-flop and try to use my position at the table to push people around a bit to blow them off draw hands.

My problem is, and I know a lot of people have heard it in micro-limits a million times, I get my butt kicked when I'm at a loose/aggressive table. You just can't get these guys off a pot. I mean last night, I'm playing against not one or two but what seemed like a whole table full of guys who would just not lay it down. Table is AAQ95 and these guys are betting into you like they have the AQ boat and at the showdown they're holding 57. Worse still is several times they would raise me on the river only to turn over ZILCH! Not even a pair.

My problem is that I go passive in games like this. I might win a couple pots and then I'll get spanked 3 or 4 times in a row for big money and then I turn into a total wuss. If I bet, they raise. If I raise, they re-raise. Next thing you know I'm check-calling every hand and dumping it the second something scary comes along. If I happen to get my nerve back up and try to take a pot with KK I get sucked out with a runner-runner flush and then I'm back in wuss mode again. In fact, at that point, I'm in double-wuss mode because I feel like no matter what cards I have I can't win unless I have the absolute nut so I end up taking very few hands past the flop. When I do take a hand past the flop some scary card will come up on the turn or river and I'll just check-call it down for fear the guy made his straight or flush. So even when I win, I'm winning far less than I'm losing because I'm too wussed out to play the cards right.

Last night was one of those especially "I can't seem to win" nights as I watched three 4 of a kinds get dealt in 10 hands (two with a pocket pair and a pair on the board and one with three on the board and one in the hole), and about an hour before that, in about 20 hands eight flops came up suited. In fact, 5 of those suited flops happened in a row. There's no better way to kill your hopes for your pocket rockets than to watch three suited cards flop with 8 people in the pot and you don't have even one of the suit. Of course, the real kick in the nutts is that after you toss your aces you watch a fourth suited card being dealt and on the showdown when everybody shows their cards, NOBODY HAS A FLUSH!!! The aces were good!!!! :-) I'm pulling my hair out. Not because I lost but how can four guys all go all the way to the river and nobody has a flush? Maybe one complete idiot might think his pair is good but four?

Ok, enough bad beat stories and whining. How do you play at these tables? I've found that during the afternoon I can work a table pretty easily but around 1am (which is when I usually can play) the maniacs start coming out. I can't necessarily adjust my life to only play when they're not playing and I know they can be beat but I just can't seem to figure out how. How do you develop the cahones to hold on to a pair of aces with four suited cards on the board? :-) Seriously though, I've read Lee's book and I know he calls low limit "No Foldem." In fact, I enjoy those who will call down a dominated hand. More money in my pocket. But how do you deal with a table of maniacs (or 2 or 3 of them at your table)? Do you just walk away? The variance/swings just seem to be way too high. Seems like all the tables at the lower limits have the maniacs running the show after midnight though so there doesn't seem much escape.

Any advice or pointers to info would be greatly appreciated. :-)

Bill

[cold_cash]

If huge swings in your bankroll are too bothersome, it might be best to look for another game. Otherwise, if there is a lot of PF raising and a lot of cold-calling, I'd tighten up my starting hand requirements for sure.

Stick to playing just big pairs and big suited connectors. Espeically if many pots are 3-bet or capped before the flop, don't try to sneak in w/ hands like JTs or 77.

Get used to folding a lot. Don't expect to win too many pots, but expect the ones you do win to be big.

True, this approach is "boring" in the sense that you don't play many hands, but I think it's the best way to go about beating a game like this. And again, if the swings are too much for you I'd look for another game.

I'm sure there are more things to consider, but these are the general rules I stick to when I'm sitting at a loose/over-aggressive table. I'm sure other posters will have others as well.

Good luck.

[Zonify]

This feels like you play the 2/4 and 3/6 at Paradise Poker.
Once the board was KK292 I had the nut flush on the turn. 5 people still in the pot still betting. I fold on the river to a bet. The best hand shows was TT!!!! Kings and tens! These guys are betting and calling with absolultely nothing in a $100 pot. I basically was losing way too much money playing with these idiots because you never know what they have, and if you decide to call everytime you'll only end up with $0. My suggestion go play NL $50 or NL $100, seems to work for me.

[thirddan]

when im at a table with a maniac, i don't think it is a bad idea to play tight/passive...however, when you get the big hands you need to be very aggressive preflop in order to try and isolate the maniac and try to get heads up or 3way...if you miss the board w/o a pair i don't htink its wrong to toss AK/AQ if there is a lot of action (even from the maniac) if there are others in the hand they will usually have something...But against manian TPTK is golden from what ive played, bet it strong...and against a maniacal table "always" call one bet on the river with a hand...hope this helps...good luck

[StellarWind]

I could use some improvement of my own in this area, so I won't pretend to have all of the answers. Here are a few starters.

1. Greatly increased variance is unavoidable. Deal or bail.

2. Maniacs are an important table selection issue. There is no doubt that maniacs are hugely negative EV. If they weren't negative EV then by definition they would be good players.

You can make money off this negative EV, but there is a dark side. Poker is like fishing. Poker with a maniac is like fishing near a shark. You can catch a shark but it's hard to catch regular fish. Poker fish around a maniac do all of the same things real fish do around a shark: 1) swim away (leave the game) 2) hide (tighten up) or 3) fight back (become more aggressive).

All of these fish reactions are bad for business. So whatever profit potential a maniac brings to the table, you need to think about whether it makes up for the damage he does to the rest of the table.

3. Maniacs are tremendous bluffers. You can't fold the later streets against bluffers. That means you need to fold early instead. Translation: tighten up preflop and flop. Don't get into confrontations with the maniac with dubious hands.

I'd especially appreciate the better players giving me feedback on this last point. But it makes sense to me.

4. Maniacs inspire fear and anger. If you are afraid or angry you need to find someplace else to play.

5. The aforementioned fear and anger can change the other players into different people. You need to watch them carefully and not rely solely on old reads about how they play.

[MortalNuts]

The "standard" advice for dealing with maniacal (i.e. extremely loose-aggressive) tables is to tighten up considerably. These tables can be very profitable, but your variance will be enormous if you play your usual whole set of hands. They'll pay you off when you hit a big hand, and deception is pointless, so play the big hands only and be prepared to play them hard.

If you are going to play at this kind of table, and do not want to endure the wild swings that come with the territory, I think you simply have to play very tight poker. Personally, I don't find this kind of poker that much fun, nor do I think it's wildly more profitable than the other types of game out there, so I usually look for a different table. The only times I've been stuck playing in this kind of game have been at B&M places, honestly; online I just go to a diffferent game.

I'm assuming here, btw, that you're talking about a game with a lot of aggression both pre- and post-flop; if it's only aggressive/maniacal post-flop, obviously you want to play more hands that have big implied odds, if you can see the flop cheaply. (This seems to happen especially often at the local CO $2-5 spread games, for instance, where you can often limp PF for $2, and then charge people $5 on all the later streets. That's partly a function of the betting structure, though, since you can start making people more earlier than in a structured game.) Play any pair from any position for a set; play Axs anywhere, etc.

hope that helps a little. good luck. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Billman]

This feels like you play the 2/4 and 3/6 at Paradise Poker.

Ding. Ding. Ding. It was Paradise. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

But truth be told I've had it happen on Party too in the lower limit games.

If huge swings in your bankroll are too bothersome, it might be best to look for another game.

Well, two people have made similar comments so I'll ask whether you mean a different table, a different limit, or are you suggesting that I abandon poker? I've played enough that I understand what a swing is and I'm ok with that. But the difference is, usually the swings without maniacs tend to be more bearable. You can look back and say "Ahhh, I see where if I played this differently I might have turned this loss into a profit." Sometimes you see no leaks and it's just a matter of bad beats. I mean, when you get a full house cracked by four of a kind, hey, what are you going to do. You can't lay down a full house. If you're getting cold decked you tighten up your game and play only the premium hands. In other words, there's at least the impression/perception of predictability. I'm either making mistakes or I'm just not pulling the right cards. If it's the former I can take action to plug the leaks. If it's the later I know that statistically, it'll pass and I just need to weather the storm and really clamp down on my starting hands.

The maniac swings tend to be more bothersome because you're looking at the hand and this moron is re-raising pre-flop with 23o. How the hell are you supposed to play against a guy who re-raises 23o? You can't put them on a hand so you have to either fold or pay them off when they catch those running 2's on the turn and river. If the average player was re-raising pre-flop I would hold out a very small probability of them holding low cards. With a maniac, who knows?

I think another issue is that when you do have the best of it, like if you have AA and the flop is Axx you feel this need to really drive this guy out of the hand while you have the chance to keep him from drawing a flush or turning some other hand that will beat you. And because he'll re-raise back at you with nothing, you're putting a lot more money into the pot than you would normally with just an regular aggressive or passive player. When you do get beat, you get beat bad. But when the pre-flop betting was capped, you have KK and the flop is Axx, because this guy could have AA as likely as he might have 92o you're just check-calling because if you raise, he's re-raising. If you win, you win the minimum.

So what I'm talking about with variances is that playing with maniacs is like riding a roller coaster. Yes, you can win big pots but when you lose you're going to take a real pounding. I was hoping to get some advice on how to smooth out those peaks and valleys a bit because if you hit both a run of bad cards AND you're playing with a maniac it can be a devistating combination to your bankroll. I've been fortunate in that I just walk away but I because everybody always says, "Hey, play the low limit games. If you can't beat those games, you'll never be able to beat the higher limit ones." Well, so far, I can beat the low limit games except with this kind of game so I'm trying to figure out if these guys just aren't worth trying to beat or if I have some major leak that I'm unaware of. Also, I'm not talking just one maniac at the table. I can usually isolate the one maniac and grind on him until he leaves. I'm talking 3 or more of them which seems to become more and more frequent late in the evening on some sites. In the rare, rare occurance where they actually fold, one or more of their brethren is still there to take their place.

Stick to playing just big pairs and big suited connectors. Espeically if many pots are 3-bet or capped before the flop, don't try to sneak in w/ hands like JTs or 77.

Believe me, when I'm playing tight with several maniacs at the table, I'm giving JJ a cautious look. :-) I'll play it down to TT but those tend to be the most dubious hands with the maniacs because you're holding JJ and the flop has an A, K or Q in it and these guys are trying to set a new betting record. Even if they don't have it they'll all try to represent it.

My suggestion go play NL $50 or NL $100, seems to work for me.

I usually try to find a nice SNG Limit or NL to take my mind off of it. I'm not much of a tourney player but I've really noticed my game improving from being driven out of the ring games after midnight. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

however, when you get the big hands you need to be very aggressive preflop in order to try and isolate the maniac and try to get heads up or 3way

Well, using last night as a recent example. It was not uncommon for 6 people to see the flop with the pre-flop betting capped. They simply refuse to fold.

All of these fish reactions are bad for business.

Especially when it does nothing but turn the entire table into super aggressive gamblers.

Maniacs inspire fear and anger. If you are afraid or angry you need to find someplace else to play.

I think you just hit the nail right on the head. I turn into a wuss because of fear as well as anger. When you start getting trips knocked down or a full house cracked by four of a kind on a runner-runner you become angry. But you know you can't play angry so you try to bury it and instead it manifests itself as fear. You try not to go on tilt because of the bad beat so instead you go in the other direction and tighten up your game and look for danger with every flip of the cards.

I think the advice I'm taking away from this so far is that I don't have to beat the table full of maniacs. I can and should walk away and go do something else intead of trying to prove that I can outplay them. Part of my desire to beat them may be that I can beat one maniac at a table. My trouble is when he turns the whole table into maniacs on tilt, I multiply out my odds and think that I should be able to beat them all. Perhaps the answer is to get up and walk away.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, two people have made similar comments so I'll ask whether you mean a different table, a different limit, or are you suggesting that I abandon poker?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I was thinking of a table without a maniac.

But that's up to you. You need to be doing something that makes you comfortable. It's totally up to you whether that means another table, another limit, another site, another kind of poker, another card game, or the movies.

[ QUOTE ]
I was hoping to get some advice on how to smooth out those peaks and valleys a bit because if you hit both a run of bad cards AND you're playing with a maniac it can be a devistating combination to your bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]
The variance is going to be enormous and you can't avoid that. Any advice you might get on reducing variance will be strictly of the make-it-less-enormous type. You cannot reduce it to anything resembling normal for a passive game.

You need a much bigger bankroll to do this. If this isn't your idea of pin money and you can't afford the losses, don't play against maniacs.

Untested suggestion: Paradise just started up $.02/$.04 and $.05/$.10 games. Their lobby provides average pot size and flop percentage. Why don't you go look for tables with normal flop attendance but very large pot sizes. It's easy to be a maniac at that price and I'll bet you find some. Practice someplace where there are no consequences.

[cold_cash]

Sometimes, you flop a monster draw and it simply doesn't get there, and the maniac(s) will win a huge pot with garbage.

Imagine, for instance, that you were at a super, super loose/agressive table with 9 certified maniacs. You wait, and wait, and wait, and wait some more, and finally after an hour of paying blinds and not playing hands you look down and see A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] . Not surprisingly, the betting is capped PF and NOBODY folds.

Now you flop a flush draw, and again, the betting is capped, still w/ 10 players.

Turn: no flush -- betting again capped.

River: no flush -- you fold -- betting again capped.

Outcome: somebody shows down 86o and takes it down with a rivered two pair.

Did you lose a lot of bets on this hand? Yes.
Does it suck that you lost? Absolutely.
Is this a profitable game? No question.

Now then, the real question you have to ask yourself is whether you're comfortable risking that many bets (even in a profitable situation), or whether you're not. If you're not, find a game that's not as wild where you're swings will be smaller. It's pretty much that simple.

[Billman]

But that's up to you. You need to be doing something that makes you comfortable. It's totally up to you whether that means another table, another limit, another site, another kind of poker, another card game, or the movies.

One of the things I've done in the past is move up in limits for a session or two. I usually play anything from .50/1 - 2/4 depending on my goal for the session but I've popped up to 3/6 and 5/10 a few times to help work on my game. IMO it really helps to mix it up with some better players to see how they play. I've come away with a lot of education and most of the time with some minor profits.

I don't think the movies is the way I'll be going. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I'm getting to that point in the learning curve where I'm really thinking about my game and I'm starting to understand a lot of the advice in the books rather than just following it. That's what makes it enjoyable for me.

This just happens to be one of those topics guys like Sklansky never talks about and people like Lee Jones more or less just tell you how to isolate and play down a single maniac. I've never really seen advice on playing against a table of maniacs so I thought I would get some input from some of you who might be more prone to seeing it.

Like I said though, one maniac I can handle. In fact, they're somewhat fun because they do liven up the game a bit and they tend to be real chatty so they provide some comic relief as well. I just do like Jones recommends and try to get them heads up and then show down the best hand. Sure, sometimes I get sucked out or I miss my straight/flush but I don't really look at it as anything more than just another strategy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I think the advice I've taken away from all of these excellent suggestions is to just walk away from a table with multiple maniacs. My bankroll can survive the fluctuations (especially if I'm mixing it up at the .50/1 table) but there doesn't seem to be any value in it from what I'm hearing people say. I can find a more passive table and not have to deal with it. I was approaching it more as a rite of passage kind of thing. Sort of like; hey, if you can beat 3 or 4 maniacs on the same table, you're really starting to become a winning player. But perhaps the winning player move is to get up and go to another table when the game starts getting out of control.